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Whats the square foot cost and maint fees in this building?
Interior shots look very Palm Beach.
Looks super nice. Looks super ‘for old people.’ Looks super expensive.
I must be old because I prefer these interiors to some of the modern/post-modern yuck of Miami.
“It is one of the nicest condo developments that I have ever visited in South Florida.” Lucas, from the pictures it seems the building is very nice, but have you visited the “Aqualina” located as well in Sunny Isles? If you have, how do you compare the two?…accommodations, condo fees, services….
BillyK,
Yes, I’ve been to Acqualina several times. I like the location of Acqualina a bit better than Turnberry Ocean Colony but overall I like TOC better. I like the fact that it’s not a monstrous high-rise like Acqualina and I never liked the limited number of hours that you’re able to get sun at Acqualina’s pool. In many respects, however, they have the same feel.
Renter Tom,
What do you think about the Cap and Trade bill that was passed in the House last week?
The building is o’k but as someone mentioned it is for a certain type of people. I am humble in this case to judge. Have you ever been in the restaurant in Acqualina? IT is very expensive but not my type of food. When I was there a lot of people some older some a bit younger men and women all dressed in flashy very expensive outfits with rubies and emeralds the size of elephant’s eggs( if elephant was a bird and could lay out eggs). when these people talk you hear it is not British English. So this is the atmosphere there. Also I felt lack of intimacy and privacy. More of a certain Las Vegas style hotel but not exactly.
Lucas, I wanted to ask you if you could remind your tech support guy to update what was sold and rented in the buildings. I think the latest info posted there is the beginning of May. Thank you
Lara,
I was just on the phone with him. He said that he’s in the middle of uploading the update right now. It’ll probably be accessible within the next couple of hours.
Oh my. Awful awful awful interiors. Faux-everything. It’s not bleeding Windsor Castle so why pretend that it is.
Wednesday, July 1, 2009,
Report: Downtown Miami condo closings cut in half
South Florida Business Journal
In all honesty, it really looks like a very upscale retirement community. Actually, it kinda reminds me of where my grandparents live, in the Trump towers in West Palm.
Cap and Trade? Yeah, like the other countries won’t cheat… It also depends on the target levels but the enforcement is an issue with different countries.
Looks like too much dead common space that hardly anyone will use. And the pools look small and uninspiring for such an expensive beach building.
Lenders foreclose on a Related Group property in West Palm Beach
BY ALLISON ROSS
Palm Beach Post
The Related Group, headed by Miami developer Jorge Perez, is turning over control of the 420-unit CityPlace South Tower condominium to an investor group in a ”friendly foreclosure” facilitated by its lenders, the company said Wednesday.
The new owners, a consortium led by Toronto-based Scotia Capital, will acquire title to all of the unsold units in the nearly empty tower in downtown West Palm Beach. There was no price disclosed in the transaction.
CityPlace South Tower developers had contracted to sell 367 units, but only managed to close on 39, according to a statement. However, the souring real estate market — especially among condos — caused ”a number” of those buyers to default on their loans, the statement said.
and the empire will fall….crumble….May the Force be with you!!!
AGAIN, ANOTHER BAD STORY ABOUT A BROKER
SORRY, PRESSED SEND BY MISTAKE.
So here is the story:
I’ve been looking at single family homes for a while now and given that I have access to MLS, I have decided to go at it myself and have been in direct contact with the listing broker of many houses for showings. I have seen approximately 10 houses with little success. No offers.
In order to stay on top of current listings, I added a typical email alert on MLS that sends me instant emails when a new listing pops up that meets my criteria.
Well, today, I received an email with a great new listing that was added today which was perfect.
The house happens to be a short sale, and when I called the broker (I won’t say the name or area), he told me that he had already sold the house. Not even a day had passed and he said that the owner had accepted the 1st and only offer. I asked him what price and he said he couldn’t tell me.
With all the talk in this blog about brokers, I thought that this was one of those unsual cases.
1) Isn’t the broker supposed to take several offers and see which one is the best one? How could he be representing the best interest of the owner (and in this case, the lender) if he accepts the first offer the first day?
2) Is there a way around this behavior? Maybe I should contact the owner or bank?
3) Shouldn’t this be reported to the DPBR?
This kind of stuff needs to stop.
… especially a short sale, you would think they’d want multiple offers in hand in case buyer #1 can’t perform. Who knows? In Miami, always safer to assume the worst.
This site is really funny. Every time Lucas posts a new thread, the last thread dies immediately. (Of course, that’s probably a good thing with the way the last one was going.)
Anyone looking to pick off a unit in this building better do some due diligence. Aside from the usual concerns about the health of a particular building you’ve got the whole FB Vegas turd circling in the toilet. Supposedly FB Vegas is not cross collateralized with any of the other Turnberry assets, …but Soffer’s guaranty exposure is huge on that project and if FB Vegas fails, who knows what else his name is on with the remaining projects (including TOC) and what effect a large deficiency judgment could have. Not saying you shouldn’t buy…just, know what’s out there.
Aside from that, the project looks nice. Not for me, but certainly for my parents.
Hugo P, not sure about your particular deal, but on the offer I made, which was also a short sale, the listing agent said he would not be taking any other offers. I think he said the bank only considers one offer at a time. Could be different from bank to bank and agent to agent for all I know though.
Fannie, Freddie ease terms for mortgage refinance
By Patrick Rucker Patrick Rucker – Wed Jul 1, 5:57 pm ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The Obama administration on Wednesday expanded its foreclosure prevention efforts to help a greater number of underwater homeowners refinance their mortgages.
Under the widened program, mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae (FNM.N) and Freddie Mac (FRE.N) will refinance up to 125 percent of a home’s value, lifting the current 105 percent loan-to-value cap.
LOL … Here we go again!
^Who is this guy, Yoda?
Hugo P, many times they will take the first offer over their asking price.
Sometimes even if it isn’t over asking they will negotiate with the potiental buyer (especially cash offers) and they won’t consider another offer until negotiation falls through. I’ve been saying on this board for a few months, the good deals do not stick around long. You check the MLS daily but there are people out there checking MLS 3 times a day. I’ve had the same thing happen to me several times in the last month. I’m checking MLS 2 times a day plus I have one of those emails thinigy.
How do you guys get MLS access, if you don’t mind my asking?
what do you know about Nirvana condos?
I don’t know about florida but in many places they have their own website where you can browse listings or you can sign up on a realtor’s site to get daily updates that meets your criterior
Turnberry looks to be a very nice condo building with great details and finishes. I see it everyday I am in town….a very quite building with one of the towers much more occupied than the other. By far more established than any of the Trump Towers. The one major issue I don’t like is that the towers sit back from the beach while the Trump Towers push to the property line on the beach causing a partial obstruction of views and of course other buildings looking into your windows….not a big deal for most people. A big concern would be the HOA dues….probably on the high end I suppose.
Lara, Nirvana is a dump. pretty sure it was low-rent apt. community that was converted during the boom.
MMT
The interesting comment about this deal is that the seller’s broker told me that the buyer was actually one of his clients on the buyer side and that he just put the two together when the listing came up. Based on this, he is acting as the seller and buyer broker, which I am pretty sure is illegal.
Did somebody say conflict of interest?
Also, when the broker is getting the listing, he can set a price for the property that he knows his buyer/client will pay, not really getting the full potential sales price.
Finally, when I asked him if I could make an all cash backup offer he said that he didn’t feel the deal with die. Knowing this market, I have to assume that he is getting a kickback from the buyer to only present his deal.
DJ
You have to be a broker to get full access o MLS or have a license registered with a broker that has access. It’s pretty expensive, not sure exactly how much.
From the DBR…
Foreclosed Properties
After lull in listings, another wave of REOs to hit market
July 01, 2009 By: Polyana da Costa
After declaring that South Florida was experiencing a scarcity of foreclosed homes for sale by lenders, local real estate agents now say a new wave of listings is making its way to market.
Some industry insiders said the recent lack of listings was an artificial shortage deliberately created by some banks that withheld their foreclosed properties from the marketplace. Other agents blame the decline in so-called REO (real-estate owned) properties for sale on other factors, including lenders’ moratoriums on foreclosures, their loan modification efforts, the uncertainty over government bailout plans and increased demand from buyers for bank-owned homes.
Regardless of the reason, agents say the number of foreclosed homes for sale drastically declined during the first half of this year. But many now say they have been inundated by lenders wanting to list homes for sale.
James Banford, owner of West Palm Beach-based Real Estate Asset Disposition Corp., which works with about 35 lenders and specializes in the sale of bank-owned properties in Florida, said his company received an average of 100 to 150 new listings of repossessed homes per month last year. That number dropped to about 25 homes per month during the first five months of this year.
“But we just saw about 100 new properties come into our inventory in June,” he said. “The reason inventory was down is that homes were selling fast, and they weren’t being replaced with new inventory. A lot of it was because of the moratorium.”
Banford also said sales of foreclosed homes have picked up substantially compared with last year. In 2008, his company sold a total of 725 REOs. In just the first five months of this year, his company has sold 645 lender-owned properties.
The type of buyers has also shifted. While most REO buyers used to be investors, many buyers are now people who intend to occupy the properties, he said.
Hot commodity
Alejandro Diaz Bazan, REO director at Avatar Real Estate Services, said he was about to run out of foreclosed properties to sell when he was assigned about 20 more from different lenders this month.
“Before I was getting about eight new listings a month, and they were selling fast,” he said.
Earlier this year, bank-owned homes in Miami-Dade County remained on the market for an average of 35 days, Bazan said. But in the last month, that average fell to about 10 days or less.
“In the past 30 days, we have seen new REOs last less than one week on market, which is irregular for a real estate market which is typically known for being illiquid,” he said.
The demand for properties continues to increase. He said he averages 10 offers for most of his REO listings.
“There is one home in Homestead that I got 29 offers for,” Bazan said.
The majority of houses that are now being sold are bank-owned properties. In Miami-Dade, for example, REOs account for about 74 percent of the 1,243 pending sales of single-family homes, according to Bazan’s research.
More than half the REOs he handles are occupied, since lenders can’t begin the lengthy eviction process until they have title to the property.
Most lenders don’t want to wait for the eviction process, which could delay putting the property on the market about 60 to 90 days. In fact, to fast-track the listing, lenders are employing a tactic called cash-for-keys. Lenders will pay the homeowners as much as $2,000 to move out of the house within 30 days, so the property can be sold.
Limited listings
A study by RealtyTrac in late 2008 showed that only 18 percent of the about 50,000 bank-owned homes and condos in Florida were listed for sale through the Multiple Listing Service (MLS).
The California-based research company said it will conduct another study this quarter but expects similar results.
And while there are thousands of residential foreclosures in the region, each South Florida county has only about 600 REO properties listed on the MLS, according to data from ZipRealty.
If banks are now so eager to sell their REOs, why are only a portion of the lender-owned properties listed for sale?
Wells Fargo senior economist Scott Anderson said he saw “some signs” of banks withholding listings in some markets during the first quarter but doesn’t think that’s happening now.
“Obviously they don’t want to flood the market all at once, so if you can spread it out, that tends to make a more orderly marketplace,” he said.
“But there was a certain regulatory uncertainty … and [lenders] were probably waiting to move into the spring selling season,” he said.
Bazan doesn’t think banks are deliberately holding back properties. He said lenders simply have been inundated with foreclosures and can’t process them as quickly as they are being seized.
“The asset managers I work with handle the REOs in teams of two and do 300 to 500 new REO assignments a month. I think they are catching up, getting the assets ready to be liquidated.”
Bazan also said new regulations have slowed the process, causing further delay in the listing of the REOs by the lenders.
“By law, in unincorporated Miami-Dade County, REOs cannot be actively listed and marketed before they obtain a [certificate of use]. This is creating a pipeline of REOs that we will see come to the market in the next months,” Bazan said.
Approaching stability?
Ron Shuffield president of the Miami-based brokerage EWM, said one reason for the increased volume of REO listings is that both lenders and buyers sense the market is stabilizing.
“Prices are down to 2003 levels,” he said.
But Wells Fargo economist Anderson said it’s too soon to declare a price bottom. That’s especially true for Miami-Dade, where he expects at least another 10 percent decline in home values over the next year.
“We may be stabilizing, but it’s a very weak bottom,” Anderson said.
Like many other national forecasters, Anderson said that rising unemployment — which he expects will surpass 10 percent nationwide within the next year — will create another surge in foreclosures.
“We expect the inventory of foreclosures to remain elevated,” he said.
Anthony Sergrich, REO manager of Boca Raton-based foreclosure.com, agreed.
Sergrich said while the flow of inventory slowed down for a few months, it was more of a pause, rather than a shortage.
“After the moratorium, banks are open to foreclosure again, so you are seeing movement coming from that,” he said.
“We’ve definitely not seen the end of the REO inventory. There is a secondary wave [about to hit the market], and there is a large enough inventory out there to last us for several years.”
Polyana da Costa can be reached at (561) 820-2065.
Lara,
Stay away from Nirvana, It is Toxic.
Alejandro Diaz Bazan,
What do you have to say about the above post?
Now that’s my kind of Condo once it reaches $110.00 a foot.
What do you guys think about Infinity at brickell??
For all the silly optimists with an agenda:
“U.S. housing prices will fall by a double-digit percentage from already beaten-down levels, resulting in an overall 40 percent plunge by the time foreclosures peak in the second half of 2010, Barclays Capital economist Michelle Meyer said.”
– Prices have never been better, buy now. Be a knife catcher.
Renter Tom….isn’t that the building that you rent in?Maybe your buddy AJ will buy a few unit’s and he could be your neighbour.
South Beach is looking a bit down with quite a few run down, for sale, weed infested properties in fairly prime locations. The “condo-hotel” fade will hurt that are for a long time since the ownership structure is a mess and really for all practical purposes can’t be undone. Worse than the apartment to condo conversions. What a fricking mess! I’ve always viewed condo-hotels as toxic and have told many people my opinion since the fade took off around 2003. The condo-hotel fade will hurt SoBe for some time. Also, the apartment to condo conversions in good locations in SoBe have a lot of stalled/BK projects. All of this will take a toll to unwind. The disinvestment in real estate, especially the high end, trophy properties, rarely used properties will be longer than the lower end as we see the cheap prices with the associated low risk get bought up by actual users. Even prime location hotels are for sale in SoBe with no buyers…..
Joey Myers – AJ lost his credibility a LONG time ago. The now tempered shill fools no one. Simple question is if as he says his condos are such good investments, why doesn’t he buy MORE especially at today’s reduced prices. The guy is a fraud I’m afraid. Must be a Realtard®.
South Florida is not alone…
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/07/05/magazine/20090705-gilded-slideshow_index.html
Happy 4th of july!
still the greatest country on earth.
“Cap and Trade” The US will now lead the world in generating Green Electricity. Environmentals call it Green electricity because somehow supposedly this electricity will be less harmfull the the environment, reduce the potential of global warming, blah, blah, blah. Note carefully that the real reason Cap and Trade produces green electricity is that it is going to completely suck all the Green out of your wallet. Prepare for much higher electric bills, maybe rates will double or more at high peak hours. Every business and government building that runs air conditioning and uses lots of electrical power will raise prices to offset new costs. Beware “Cap and Trade” and if you doubt my opinion note well that Goldman Sachs wants to manage the new “Cap and Trade “exchange, yes the same GS who brought $150 barrel / oil to us last summer. Al Gore is smiling as he owns parts of all the new technologies that will sell, by government mandate, to utlilities who have no choice but to buy and install or pay up in new fees and new taxes. Cap and Trade not good for real estate values. Good question AJ, and thanks for this BLOG.
Yawn…snore
Like anyone cares about a condo building that was built when disco was in style.
TOC was hopping on the 4th with a band with tents and all….even the beach boys sported American flag baseball hats and patriotic beads…. Very tastefully done.
Mike – TOC is new construction, not from the 70’s, in case you were mistaking for another building.
Hugo P who the hell knows anything anymore.I see your looking for houses now?Last time I saw your post you were thinking about a condo in Aventura.have you forgotten about that fraud infested place.I made a couple offers myself on 188th ….and now there ASKING less.I can’t believe that.What do you know about Uptown Marina Loft’s??? Anything new in that building lately?I think you were LQQKING next door at Atrium?I am thinking about a house myself…and forget those crazy HOA’s.With prices still dropping like a lead balloon…….who knows what to think anymore…….
What will AJ say now???
“Manhattan home prices plunge
Huge downturn for co-op and condo owners in pricey housing market. Number of sales ticks up as buyers with money take an opportunity.
NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) — The housing bust has finally clobbered super-pricey Manhattan home prices.
Reports released Thursday by four major New York brokers show that prices cratered during the three months that ended June 30.
Prices fell between 13% and 19% compared with the same quarter last year. The brokers found median prices that ranged from $795,000 to $849,000.
The decline shows a marked turn from the first quarter of 2009, when the year-over-year change in median home prices ranged from a loss of 2% to a gain of 6%. …”
http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/02/real_estate/Manhattan_home_prices_plunge/index.htm?postversion=2009070200
following up from my post above, a poorly written article from the herald
southbeachsand – I sure hope AJ wasn’t the DJ there…
Just got an approval from the first lender on my short sale. Second lender’s approval is expected within the next day or two. Woo-hoo!
12 people got shot last night a few blocks away from the Park West condos in Overtown. Three suspects in trenchcoats mowed down a party with automatic AK-47 guns. I would hate to own an overpriced condo knowing that its gang warfare right outside the building.
DJ
Congratulations. I hope you get the unit.
Joey Myers
I was looking at Atrium for a long time. Made a buch of offers to the developers but they didn’t accept them. I wasn’t really interested in the other buildings on 188th street. Uptown Marina Lofts is a cool loft style building but it’s not what I am looking for and I’ve heard that there are lots of short term rentals. Artech is not for me and the other ones in that street aren’t the same quality. (BTW, the Atrium was mentioned in a SFBJ article as one of the best buildings maintaining value over the past few years)
As far as the house, yes… I am looking for a house now. Somehow paying $800/month in HOA fees doesn’t sound right to me.
Did you guys see that fireworks show? Pathetic! Looks like Miami is cutting back big time! HAHAHAHAH. The condo crash CONTINUEEEEESSSS!
Mazel Tov to DJ, I hope you’re not already underwater on your purchase!
South Beach Sand, is it true that 1800 club was the scene of a shoot out? It’s just a rumor I heard from a local hobo that lives behind 1800 club. He sure loves begging for change.
M3……thanks for the concern, but paying cash!
Nice building but prices in the $600/sq ft range in this building make it very expensive compared to everything else in Sunny Isles. If you can sacrifice some of the amenities you can get a great condo in the area for under $400/sq ft.
Any feedback on the fireworks? How were the SOBE fire works compared to the Bayside? I believe the best view is from 50 Biscayne where you get to see both the Bayside and the south beach fireworks. If it is indeed scaled down as money is tight, it is the right thing to do. Not every city has a mega display like NYC (private sponsor) or DC (government money).
I watched the NYC fireworks. This year they are twice as large than usual. I guess NYC always does things in style no matter what. Usually there are 3 barges of fire works. But this year, there are 6 barges!! The time was still the same. A mind blowing 30 minutes from 9:20 pm to 9:50 pm (same time every year). They estimated a million people watched from either side of the Hudson river and millions more from afar and from buildings. If you are not positioned on either side of the Hudson at least 4 hours before, you had to watch them from 3 or 4 avenues away as the entire waterfront for miles got filled up in no time.
I watched both shows from 1800 club. Unfortunately I was harassed by hobos begging for change the entire time. 1800 club sure does have a lot of hobos hanging around begging for change. Good thing they’re very polite. Disgruntled hobos are the worst.
Can anyone confirm the rumor that the common areas in 1800 Club will no longer be air conditioned due to HOA delinquency? If so, what a bummer!
I digress – so I saw both shows from the hood of my dodge stratus. The South beach show was more intense but shorter. The Miami show sucked donkey balls. I’m typing here at Jackson Memorial because I was shanked by a hobo as I left 1800 club at 10 pm on Saturday night. He got me right in the gonads. Ouch!
The related group has built many great projects, Like many other devlepors the market mad a turn for the worst just as they had many new projects. I think that it would be fair to say that Related’s projects for the most part are very nice with great finsh and attention to detail (Minus a few buildings of course). I used to rent at Turnberry and found it to be a very nice location to live. The turnberry is close to shopping, Food and the BEACH’S! I would give it a thumbs up
Jose Gregorio – There is more than one Turnberry project. The one in this post is Turnberry Ocean Colony. It is ON THE BEACH, not close to it. Doubt you rented in there and are no longer there since it is very new. Perhaps you are thinking about Aventura or another area? Moreover, it is not a Related Group project. As an obvious Realtard® I would think you would know where this is located. And your website sux – I linked to it and the navigation is awkward. Perhaps the wizard can give you a brain?
Is it obvious that I think the level of Realtor® professionalism in this area needs improvement? One thing I have learned down here is to never trust (OK, fully trust) real estate agents down here (Luca excepted of course). First, they know nothing or at least no details about anything and second, they lie. Oh well.
CNBC just did a piece on S. Florida RE with Jack McCabe and some other lady, didn’t get her name.
Jack McCabe says SF still have a way to go but if you are going to live in your home 5 to 7 years there are deals to be had at 70%-80% off. 2010 could be time to buy. Banks are trying to control number of foreclosures they are putting on market in an attempt to control prices (we’ve discussed that here, I’ve seen this personally).
Lots of foreclosures but banks are trying to do something to control price decline by limiting inventory and the government is also working to limit or delay foreclosures by lowering the bar to qualifying for refinancing. You have Banks and the Government working together to reduce the steep drop in prices we have seen.
DJ, congrads on the approval from the first lein holder.
I hope you offered the 2nd lein holder 2K for their troubles. They shouldn’t get anything because they have Zero equity position in that property. If it goes to foreclosure they will be wiped out so you are doing them a favor by offering them 2k.
I just hope your realtor didn’t talk you into being too generous with them.
MMT, thanks man.
With regard to the second lien holder, we structured the offer like this: I made the offer for $X. We wrote it up for$10k less than $X, with a stipulation included that that $10k would be in escrow, with all or part of it to be allocated to satisfy the 2nd.
So in essence, my bottom line stayed the same, and the first accepted my offer for $10k less than what I actually agreed to. This was at the suggestion of the short sale guy who is splitting the listing agents commission with him, and I gotta say, has done a great job.
The nice part is that when I got the approval letter yesterday, it included all the sellers expected expenses (to be deducted from the initial sales price of $X), and one of those expenses was $3k which was allocated to satisfy the 2nd loan. That was unexpected, and my contribution, whatever it will end up being, will be a lot less than the $10k set aside. So basically, even if I do have to pony up a couple grand out of that $10K, I’ll still end up saving a good part of it, and actually get the property for that much cheaper than what I initially offered. The guy negotiating everything said he would push hard to minimize my contribution. Pretty cool.
DJ, I just got an offer accepted too on a foreclosure from the bank today. Final price will be about 50% off what they originally listed the house for over 3 months ago. At that time I though the price was fair but I was not willing to pay that price so i waited until they droped it 2 weeks ago then made them a ridiculous offer but they didn’t accept, they countered then I countered but agent said the wouldn’t go lower so I walked away. called back yesterday and the selling agent told me they wouldn’t accept less than X and even then they had to get a VP approval. I offered less than $X and they accepted without a counter. Lying sack of sh*t! verry good deal though.
I think our stories are proof you are able to negotiate good deals today if you have patience and cash. General market may go lower next year but I doubt I’ll be able to get a house for this price in this neighborhood for much lower.
Bmw – Were you born an asshole or is it something you have been working on your entire life?
Kramer.. agree with you…
Lucas should really look at eliminating posts from people who contribute nothing to the discussion
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=1174257461&play=1
CNBC video
MMT, awesome dude, congrats! You have an idea on an anticipated closing date yet? I’m hoping to close ASAP and get moved in by the end of this month, if possible. Once the the 2nd lien holder approves, I’ve just gotta have the inspection done, then move for a super fast closing. We should get together for a few cocktails and cigars once all is said and done to celebrate our new purchases!
As for your second paragraph, I see it like this…..I searched and searched for condos over the past year, and the place I’ll hopefully have soon is exactly what I want. I’m getting it for a price I feel good about, so no matter what, I’ll feel like I’m getting a good deal. The one thing I’ve learned is that it’s near impossible to predict the bottom, so while prices may fall some more in this building over the next year or so, I don’t really care. I got my place for a great price, and I got myself a sweet condo that I’m looking forward to moving into. Like you said though, having cash and patience definately helped in making it possible.
DJ, don’t know when I’ll be in miami next but I’m excited for you. I asked for 2 weeks since it is a cash purchase but they gave me 1 month so I’ll take the extra time.
BMW = ACE?
Hugo P – Thanks for the post on the CNBC interview. A bit of hype from Peter…he’s nuts regarding where prices will be for that condo in a few years…nuts.
The two commentators made sense in my book. On a macro econ level, we have serious deleveraging going on. The distress is maybe halfway through so it is still a gamble on high end priced real estate. Commercial real estate is going to hurt going forward. See with a CNBC clip with Lehman Brothers Holdings:
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/07/cnbc-interview-with-bryan-marsal-ceo-of.html
DJ
good luck.
DJ,
Glad you found a place! You view the purchase the same way i do. Once you find a price you are happy with in a building you really want, then it is fine to make a move. The right price is the affordability index. Once you can buy a unit at a price that is not dangerous to your financial health, such that even with a job loss or reduction, you can still stay afloat, then you made a good move. Just been waiting for that to happen myself. At $300k, too risky for me. But between $100k and $200k, I have much more room to maneuver in the future. When prices reach the affordable level, sales will take off tremendously (although not prices). MMT great that you also found a similar deal.
jcrimes and gables, thanks guys!
MMT, I’m excited for you too!
jcrimes, any news on the offer you were talking about making recently? If things are still in the works and you don’t wanna talk about it now, completely understandable, just make sure you keep us updated if and when something happens. I’m curious to hear about the deal you found.
still working on it. it’s a little screwy because of what the owner did with his lenders, but i do have contacts at the banks and my realtor is doing what he can to move things along. i put it at an arbitrary 35% chance of getting it done.
Congrats on those that have found a property at a price they are comfortable with that mitigates the future ownership risks. There are some deals out there and I am pretty much in the camp that only a distressed sale will be priced to take into account the future ownership risks. Condos and shared expense dwellings have an additional substantial risk in this environment.
Some concerns are that we are not at a “clearing price” yet for most real estate, inventories are still at record highs, the high end is dead dead dead, one and done buyers with really no move ups, pent up shadow inventories caused by bank delays and moratoriums, and years of high foreclosure rates to come. Moreoever, the ability to buy via available financing is still not in place and really won’t be coming back. We will also see years of debt collection against some of those that defaulted.
As long as you do your due diligence, exercise an abundance of caution, and are comfortable with your purchase….enjoy!!!!!!!!!
Wow lots of happy buyers.
Kramer, been working on it my whole life. Despite living in Miami, a city filled with polite, thoughtful people I come out this way! Thanks for the insult though! Shows how classy you are lol
well, to go back to my pessimist mode….condos scare the sh$t out of me right now. the whole kibbutz mentality would make me squirm.
M3, you’re actually getting on kramer for calling you out? You contribute absolutely nothing to this board other than acting like a complete dickhead and posting juvenile insults. Oh yes, you are the epitome of class.
I been looking for a single family home but I still have not found one specific site where you can find the latest listings and the HOA and Tax information. Could anyone recommend a one stop site where all this info could be found at the click of one button with out having to go to 2-3 different websites.
DJ, MMT, congratulations and good luck!
Further indication of the massive over building:
“NEW YORK (Reuters) – The vacancy rate for U.S. apartments reached its highest level in more than 20 years in the second quarter and could soon exceed record highs if the recession persists, real estate research firm Reis Inc said.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE5670KD20090708
Seeing some list prices collapse in Solaris. Any inside info on this building? Units would be a good deal unless the building is sitting on some bad HOA debts.
U.S. Home Prices to Fall Through 2011’s First Quarter
By Dan Levy
July 7 (Bloomberg) — Home prices may fall in more than half of the largest U.S. cities through the first quarter of 2011 as unemployment and foreclosures rise, mortgage insurer PMI Group Inc. said.
Thirty of the 50 biggest metropolitan areas have at least a 75 percent chance of lower prices through March 31, 2011, Walnut Creek, California-based PMI said in a report today. The decline is likely to spread to “all regions of the nation” from California, Florida, Nevada and Arizona, the states most affected by the housing slump, PMI said.
“The housing market has been hit by a demand shock of high unemployment and a supply shock of distressed foreclosure sales,” LaVaughn Henry, senior economist at PMI, the fourth- largest U.S. mortgage insurer, said in an interview.
Unemployment rose to 9.5 percent in June, bringing the total number of jobs lost to 6.5 million since December 2007, the Labor Department said July 2. Foreclosure filings may hit a record 1.8 million in the first half of the year as more jobless homeowners default on their loans, real estate data service RealtyTrac Inc. said last month.
Home prices in 20 major U.S. metropolitan areas dropped 18.1 percent in April from a year earlier, following an 18.7 decrease in March, according to the S&P/Case-Shiller index. Prices are forecast to fall 41.7 percent from their peak, Deutsche Bank AG analysts led by Karen Weaver wrote in a June 15 report.
Florida Drops Predicted
“Affordability is no longer the driving issue in the housing market, and we believe prices still have a ways to fall in many areas before home prices reach their trough,” the Deutsche Bank analysts wrote.
The 15 areas with the highest probability of lower prices in 2011 each have a 99 percent chance, PMI said. They include Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach, Orlando, Tampa and Jacksonville in Florida; Riverside, Los Angeles, Santa Ana, Sacramento and San Diego in California; Las Vegas; Phoenix; Providence, Rhode Island; and Detroit.
Edison and Newark, in New Jersey, have a 97 percent and 96 percent chance, respectively. Nassau, New York, has a 92 percent chance. New York City showed an 88 percent chance of lower prices, according to PMI.
“The New York area has gone from a moderate level to an elevated level because of the big hit from the financial crisis,” Henry said.
Declines Predicted
Washington showed a 92 percent chance of lower prices; Portland, Oregon, and Baltimore each have 90 percent; Atlanta has 81 percent; Boston has an 80 percent chance; San Jose, California has 78 percent; and Minneapolis has a 75 percent chance, PMI said.
The probability of lower prices is 66 percent in the San Francisco area; 58 percent in Warren, Michigan; 46 percent in Seattle; 45 percent in Milwaukee; 41 percent in Cambridge, Massachusetts; 36 percent in Chicago; and 30 percent in Philadelphia, according to PMI.
The areas with the least chance of lower prices, each with less than a 6 percent probability, include Cleveland; Pittsburgh; Columbus, Ohio; San Antonio; Houston; Dallas, and Fort Worth, Texas, according to PMI.
The insurer compiles its “market risk” index from income, interest-rate, home-price and affordability data going back to the early 1980s.
Sorry to keep putting up articles and links, but I thought this graph is very telling of what’s been called the “Backlog Foreclosure” problem…
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/SkoyR9VndJI/AAAAAAAAFsY/kGJ-EpJqPt0/s1600-h/ForeclosureActivityQ12009.jpg
Beautiful place, but some of your photos are a little dark. I think you could use a more powerful flash.
Investor closes on 21 units at Marina Blue
In the fourth bulk condo deal in downtown Miami over the past year — and the second to close in June — investor Jorge Mattos has closed on 21 units in the Marina Blue condo tower, 888 Biscayne Blvd., for $5.69 million, according to research from Condo Vultures, a Bal Harbour-based real estate consultancy.
The all cash-deal involving a former Marina Blue lender included 13 two-bedroom units, seven one-bedroom units and a penthouse for an average of $196 per square foot.
Jorge Mattos is a business partner of Carlos Mattos, who also last month closed on a bulk deal for 31 units at 1060 Brickell condo. The price for the units was $6.1 million, or $203 per square foot.
NOW THE QUESTION IS:
$203/SF for 1060 and $196/SF for MB? Am I missing something here? Maybe it has something to do with the unit mix and location, but isn’t MB a MUCH better building?
Hugo
Yes MB is a better building plus water views. To top it off the 1060 purchase included mostly studio apts with some one bedrooms. So apparently these guys are brothers No? Smells fishy to me. Why buy studios as investments. There is no resale value in that. What is the source of their money?
Both deals way over priced whomever bought will never realize cap fees with the realization of homeowner HOA fees being so far in arrears-did these guys even realize what is coming with 10% unemployment, its a matter of time until the Mateos brothers are in way over their head…
Kudos to the one who brought the suckers to the table….and as the swindler says to his clients let the buyer beware-
Both deals way over priced whomever bought will never realize cap fees with the realization of homeowner HOA fees being so far in arrears-did these guys even realize what is coming with 10% unemployment, its a matter of time until the Mateos brothers are in way over their head…
Kudos to the one who brought the suckers to the table….and as the swindler says to his clients let the buyer beware-
You would get my attention for a 2B in MB for $200 sq ft.
gables,
these are the same bulk deals Lucas had on his page a month ago. You had a chance to pick up some units on lower floors for even lower prices psf than the $200. $200 psf was the average some higher many lower.
Joys of owning a condo.
Bankruptcy
http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/DocView.asp?did=1000479122&fid=1725
“Africa-Israel halves prices in NY project”
It should be remembered that Africa-Israel’s most problematic projects are in Miami, such as the Marquis project… At the moment, it has enough money to continue through mid or late 2010.”
gables
My estimate is that the bulk buyer needs to sell at $230/sf at least to make a good investment when you consider carrying costs, hoa fees, taxes, etc… maybe even $250/sf.
Do we have your attention at $250/sf? Don’t think so
Yeah I really don’t don’t get these bulk buyers, they’re just glorified flippers. All they’re doing is keeping the price artifcially high and basically putting themselves in the position of the developer, who already can’t sell at the prices they’re going to try to market these units at. Makes no sense. Like gables said, if individuals sales could start going for the bulk rate, then we’d probably see some activity.
Anybody know anything about the Caribbean building in SOBE? 37th and collins
Wild Bill – Had seen that article. Can’t figure out how the developer screwed them like that with some silly pool lease….wow. Crazy. I wonder what percent of delinquent HOA fees causes the condo death spiral. Is 20% irrecersible or 30%? Once the magical number is reached the HOA collapses quickly. That’s is the big risk of being a cash buyer in one of these condos. So much for the care-free condo lifestyle promoted in all of those brochures.
JL
AI may go down but Leviev will still be RICH. actually, not RICH, but rather RIDICULOUSLY RICH
Hugo
Carbibbean is nice but I’d wait for deals on the Nobe Bay. That will be a fire sale now that the bank took it back.
RT
you’ll find that form of agreement in a lot of the old buildings on the beach. it’s quite common…and quite onerous.
jcrimes
The last time I looked, Nobe Bay was still under construction and it seemed like it was stopped. Nice building too, but not directly on the water like Caribbean
Did the bank oficially take it back?
took it back a few months ago. bank is going to have to finish it off or sell it. either way, there will be significant deals. i think the remaining construction is all interior/grounds
jcrimes….what happens if the court cancels the pool lease???? Who would lease a pool at those rates??? No one, and the developer gets screwed. LOL
Renter Tom,
That pool lease is a killer. These bankruptcies kill condos. All the contractors know they risk nonpayment. Gets harder and harder to find contractors if they know they won’t get paid.
A court appointed receiver needs to take these buildings.
I’m waiting for some negligent maintenance items to come up. Miami Beach code can shut the building down for life safety issues. Wonder how the board let it get this far.
Yes indeed, this looks like a nice place to show your clients. The following discussion is interesting as well! Thanks!
What can happen to the owners if the HOA goes bankrupt? Are they gonna lose their ownership of their condos?
Watcher, an HOA bankruptcy would not affect any of the individual owners rights towards their units. It would affect the common areas and maintenance of the building. Most likely,what would happen is the court would appoint a receiver to take control and collect money, etc., presumably until the HOA was in a position to step back in. I’m no expert in the area, but that sounds like the most likely scenario.
DJ – Can you say SPECIAL ASSESSMENTS…..and lots of them. LOL
DJ: thanks.
Will it happen like this: If I was an owner, I would be able to keep my condo but I would not be able to use it, since the elevators would stop running, there would be no guard, swimming pool would dry, etc because all the monthly HOA will go to pay for the debt (and lawyers)?
As much as condos take a bad rap, the fact remains that multistory living is the way to the future. The days of gas guzzling,suburban mcmansion living days will be gone. Energy crunch & envirnmental concerns will bring all joes perforce into urban living. Resistance is futile.
This is the scenario for all urban centers like sofla/la/chicago/sanfran etc..A living closed to NY in spirits than hicksville, alabama.
Watcher, like I said I’m no expert on the subject, but presumably the court appointed receiver would take steps to make sure those things wouldn’t happen, ie, collect maintenance and assessments, negotiate terms with service providers, etc.,etc. Probably all frivilous amenities would be cut and the money would go towards the bare-bones necessities. So maybe the pool would be drained and the gym might be locked up, but I’d assume all steps would be taken to keep the water running and power on. I’m not sure about the existing debt, whether it would be completely discharged, or whether it would be modified. I guess it would depend on the type of bankruptcy proceeding.
a collapse of the HOA can have massive implications on the unit holders. each individual unit can be liened up by various service providers which results in every unit being unmarketable. lien won’t get released until you pay your portion of the outstanding obligation. nightmare scenario is where the service is cutoff completely (e.g., water). try selling your place and having to explain that you need a big bucket and a shitload of zephyrhills to take a shower.
as for the debt, i assume an HOA has to file a chapter 11 and not a 7 (you can’t liquidate an association and create a new one). if that’s the case, it has to figure out a way to rework it’s debts. but since the issue with these HOAs is that they’re not collecting enough revenue, i’m not sure it matters if they figure out a way to rework the debt which caused them to file for bankruptcy. eventually, they will once again have the same problems, i.e., they’re not collecting enough dues to pay their obligations.
jcrimes, you’re right, an association would have to go into chapter 11 and restructure the debt somehow, but what would that do if there were no assets and the association can’t raise revenue. Basically, a nightmare situation. The thought of this alone is scaring the shit out of me as far as my pending purchase is concerned.
The HOA bankruptcy thing made it to calculatedriskblog.com
http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2009/07/condo-association-files-bankruptcy.html
By the way, jcrimes is correct, a lien can be placed on each unit for the proportionate share which can be cleared away at the closing of the unit by having the purchase proceeds pay off any outstanding lien….the real problem is no one could get to closing since no one would buy into such a nightmare HOA scenario. It becomes a zombie condo building…..the walking dead. Moreover, the HOA won’t be able to borrow money like some could in the past. Hence, having adequate reserves becomes even more important to get an HOA through any hardship hump. Really, an HOA declaring bankruptcy where parts of the common areas are leased is really really really messed up. The only “joy” is the developer who tried to pull a fast one with the 99 year lease for major common areas won’t get paid and that property becomes effectively worthless since what else can be done with it and who else would use it????
DJ…see my post #82.
RT and others…an HOA bankruptcy is the ultimate catch 22 for all parties involved. that’s why (as RT points out) reserves are so goddamn important. you should be extremely skeptical of any building which chooses to forego building up its reserves. really, god forbid if a major hurricane hits this year. might as well hand the keys over to the lender and call it a day.
all of this really leads to the fundamental issue in my mind – the way to cure this entire debacle (which is now pouring over into state and local gov’t budget shortfalls) and get things moving is affordability, i.e., flush all this non-performing property down the drain and get folks in who can buy it and carry. the affordability issue will never get answered as long as the gov’t keeps on trying to prop up prices, the banks remain too damn incomptent to move inventory and take losses and the local gov’ts fails to implement some form of foreclosure reform that speeds up the process dramatically.
The condo board is supposed to special assess if they need to raise funds, no exceptions to that rule. In the old days (3 years ago) a condo owner or condominium board could go to a bank and finance the large assessments. No cushion these days means many more failures.
These buildings will just let the debt grown until it’s unmanageable. Not smart. Even with a payment plan your monthly fees for a crap box could be $1000 and up.
To give you an example about HOA liens (not dramatic in my case). When I sold my apartment last month there were 2 liens disputed by HOA. HOA is fighting back against these liens. No matter what result is going to be but title company deducted certain amount of money from my proceeds proportionate to my share of the common areas in the building and put it in escrow account in order to protect new owners from being charged. Here it was just $400. Obviously if the situation is more serious the one would not be able to sell.
JCrimes,
You mentioned NOBe Bay. Sounds interesting. When do you think they will finish this building? When you say deals would you be able to estimate how significant the deals are going to be. Do you have more info about the building?
Property insurance going up the max 10% for Citizens, others to follow. Since property insurance is a major component of HOA fees, expect more condo HOA’s to go bust as owners and HOA’s on the margin throw in the towel.
Lara
no idea on when the property will be finished. the bank however, can’t sit on it for long. insurance, taxes and other carrying costs are a massive drain. my guess, the bank will partner up with someone shortly to finish it barebones and sell it out as fast as possible. can’t give you an idea as to price, but you can be assured, the preconstruction pricing from 2005 will not be in effect.
Jcrimes, thank you very much for your response. If you keep your eye on this project I would appreciate your notification on it. I probably would be interested in it myself for my modest needs) if prices make sense from investment point of view. I also have a party who would probably be interested in bulk purchase of some units if not the whole building. Again prices have to be attractive enough.
jcrimes, what do you do for work if you don’t mind my asking? You seem to have have all kinds of info on everything.
Thanks everybody for all the information. I’m now officially scared.
Is Brickell the new Harlem? Probably not that bad but in this real estate pullback, the up and coming are left behind and worse off.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/nyregion/08harlem.html
I wonder if MLS listings in the Maison Grande disclose the lease. Some buildings with such leases end up with chain link fences around the pool. The lease was probably insignificant in the early days but with compound annual increases its a mighty expensive swim now.
We made an offer on a short sale. The lender is requesting a $2500 non-refundable deposit to stop the foreclosure sale. Is this a typical request in a short sale process?
[…] is a follow-up post to the picture tour of the common areas at Turnberry Ocean Colony. Below you will find a variety of pictures of a 2 bedroom/2.5 bath condo with 2,235 square feet […]
jcrimes — I agree about affordability, but it’s not just r.e. that’s not affordable. Miami and Miami-Dade County are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, and that’s after an almost 10-year run of record property tax receipts. Even if a person gets good value on a condo, in a building with a solid HOA, the tax man is going to be the next person screwing people over.
Massively overpriced condos + financially unstable HOAs + city and county governments living way beyond their means = DISASTER for everyone, from those who just bought today to those with substantial equity.
As someone mentioned above, it’s very dangerous being a cash buyer in a market like this, because such people are Target #1 when the HOA needs cash. People have had condos essentially stolen from them by HOAs over trivial amounts of money, all because the HOA issued a special assessment and took quick legal action.
Condo units that are unencumbered with debt not only can cover the HOA’s lien, but generate quick resale profits for some unscrupulous HOA board member’s buddy. This isn’t the time to pay cash for a condo and then take off to Europe for six months. Such buyers need to be checking their mail regularly.
DJ
these days i work for an investment firm on the real estate side. my random useless info mainly stems from listening to far more important people than me (read – wealthier) tell me what’s going on in the world at lunch.
I take it jcrimes, there is considerable worry among the investors regarding purchases over the last 5-6 years (cash flow is way down and might not be enough for debt service let along free cash spinned off) and very cautious opportunity for projects if the current lenders take a big hit to unload them. Basically, that is how I see it, we’re waiting to see who takes the “big hit” on a lot of this stuff……we’ve been in a Phantom Zone where nothing is progressing toward resolution. Banks don’t want to take over more real estate nor do they want to write down their assets…… Look at Trump Tower III, it is basically done, common areas, landscaping, pool, even the beach level cabana’s….but is totally empty…..not a soul and not even open. It is a ghost building. Unreal.
RT
about right. the real problematic product all hails from deals originated in the 06/07 period. numbers don’t work today and probably won’t for the foreseeable future. i don’t do a significant amount of residential work (i.e., sales of condo buildings) but, using Trump III as an example, there’s a host of buildings all up and down collins in a similar state. one of the big issues is that the banks have been playing catch up for the past year. deals that were presented to them a year ago, which were refused outright, are now, in retrospect, amazing.
Great project, I was living there for a little while!!!! Love it and love the related groups projects!!!