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glad to see you are alive…..how much is this unit going for?
List price is $850,000. The unit has 1,890 square feet of interior space.
Anyone know anything about Roney Palace on the beach? What is 760 feet city view completely renovated worth at the bottom of course??
Lucas,
Is there a problem with your site server ? I do not see any pics.
I personally consider Quantum a great design building and excellent location longer term. Apartments in line 01 have pretty much same view (2 bedroom) around 1400 sqft listed for around $550K….pricey but reasonable for foreigners given weak dollar
This is the crapiest building I have seen in Miami. The view and location is great but the lobby and amenities look like the developer ran out of money. What a shame, could have been a great building. New owners should throw in 20k in a special assessment (around $13,000,000 total) to revamp the building amenities and lobby to bring it up to par and get a real value out of their investment.
Do not exagerate, what is wrong with the lobby? The lobby looks nice!. Public areas are really nice and big! On the amenities side, yes, Quantum owners where shortchanged, no jacuzzi, no steamroom as promissed in writing, and the two pools are for kids, maximum depth 4′ 8”, but serve their purpose. The maintenance is on the average $200 more than at 1800, I was told in part because the developer chose flood insurance coverage and Quantum might be overstaffed, something the HOA will have to look into. The garage is problematic, especially if you park on the higher floors. So there are pluses and minuses. The location is great, Margaret Pace park is nice and will get better.
Lucas,
You should have come to see ours. Ours has been upgraded.
I really like the amenities at quantum, sure it would of been nice to have a steam room, but heck its got everything else. Granted, I agree with its parking problems and yes these are issues that can and will be dealt with, but the reality is that for the money and location I really feel that it is the most bang for your buck. I, personally, was impressed with their amenities floor as I thought that it was unparalleled in size and in its offerings. Its got a huge gym and I really feel a sense of community building in the whole area. Whatever problems exist are workable and minute in comparison to most buildings anywhere in Miami.
I recently began using this site and I find it a great help. I live in NE and I am in the market to purchase a condo in SoBe, perhaps towards the end of the year.
The agent I work with has suggested the following three communities:
Waverly
Floridian
Flamingo
Since I am not very familiar with the area, it would be helpful ( I think )to get a more objective view than the agent. I would appreciate hearing not only the good but also the BAD info. on these communities. Or if you could recommend a site that would be helpful. Thanks.
All three are converted apartment buildings and the common areas, including narrow hallways, are not what you would expect for the money.
Find an agent with some taste. If you are spending SoBe $$$, you can do better.
While Un-Related is correct about the buildings being converted from apartment and not having exquisite common areas, he’s not painting the whole picture.
The Floridian and the Waverly are both very nice, fairly new (circa 2000), upscale complexes. They are both situated in great locations on the bay, with many units in both having fantastic bay views. While they may not have the allure or amenities of some of the South of Fifth buildings, their locations (especially the Waverly–a 7 minute walk from Lincoln Road) are, in my opinion, better.
While South of Fifth may have more appeal as an elite area, it lacks a neighborhood feel and is also much more isolated from most of the great areas of South Beach. Forget walking to Li ncoln Road from South of Fifth. It’s an easy stroll from the Waverly or Flamingo and very doable from the Floridian (about 8 blocks).
So as long as you get an upgraded unit in the Floridian or Waverly (one that has been enhanced since the conversion and no longer has the cheaper finishes), there’s a lot of positives to living/buying in the Floridian or Waverly. Flamingo is another (very long) story.
As a resident of south of fifth, I have to object with JB’s assessment of my neighborhood. SoFi most certainly feels like a neighborhood and is has the strongest neighboorhood association on the beach (SOFNA). You might not be able to walk to lincoln road from sofi, but you can most certainly walk to the beach, which I will take any time over a tourist congested generic gentrified mall. It is a quiet neighborhood with its parks which considering the size of sofi are considerable and some of the best restaurants in all of the beach which you can literally walk to. It is family friendly and at the same time welcoming to all. We have a grade A elementary school within walking distance from all of sofi and we have a brand new kids park on 3rd and ocean. I am sorry, but this certainly feels like a neighborhood to me and to all who I know. I would have to agree with Unrelated, find a realtor with taste.
South of Fifth has a very strong neighborhood association for a reason.
Because it’s full of problems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFcnXLONSMk
People living South of Fifth need to quit crying about the noise and move to a condo to get away from it or go to Brickell.
Don’t live in South Beach if you don’t want to play by it’s rules.
I heard a lot of porn gets filmed at the Flamingo…
As a trained urban planner and New Urbanist, I agree with DLJ, South of 5th is a charming neighborhood, I don’t live there and know nothing about its noise concerns or other issues. Urbanistically though, it’s charming and feels like a neighborhood.
I also applaud DLJ’s description of Lincoln Road- “a tourist congested generic gentrified mall” too funny! Shudder!
Just entered contract to purchase 2 BR south of fifth…. wife and I looked all over the beach. SOFI fits out needs… quiet, park for my daughter and a neighborhood feel. The video on youtube does a great job and seems the local government passed law that will restrict future problem restaurant/bars.
Also… want to go to Lincoln Road … can catch the bus for a quarter.
1. JB said: “The Floridian and the Waverly are both very nice, fairly new (circa 2000), upscale complexes. They are both situated in great locations on the bay, with many units in both having fantastic bay views. ”
The Waverly is a lot nicer than the Floridian. I have lived in the latter. The HOA monthly on the unit I am renting is approximately $950. I have seen multi-day AC shut-offs, water leaking through ceilings over both showers, “dark” hallways, unfinished (f0r a year) paint jobs, dog poop in pools, foreclosures, etc, etc…..
2. JB also said: “While South of Fifth may have more appeal as an elite area, it lacks a neighborhood feel and is also much more isolated from most of the great areas of South Beach. Forget walking to Li ncoln Road from South of Fifth. It’s an easy stroll from the Waverly or Flamingo and very doable from the Floridian (about 8 blocks). ”
There is a small bus that runs every 15 minutes that costs $.25 that does a loop around SoBe (Washington (on east) West (on west) Publix (north) and South Pointe Dr. (on south).
DLJ said: “It is a quiet neighborhood with its parks which considering the size of sofi are considerable and some of the best restaurants in all of the beach which you can literally walk to. It is family friendly and at the same time welcoming to all. We have a grade A elementary school within walking distance from all of sofi and we have a brand new kids park on 3rd and ocean. I am sorry, but this certainly feels like a neighborhood to me and to all who I know. I would have to agree with Unrelated, find a realtor with taste.”
Thanks and I FULLY AGREE with your (and la la’s) analysis of SoFi. As long as you have a parking space, you can not beat the neighborhood.
la la said: “I heard a lot of porn gets filmed at the Flamingo…”
I spent 2 years on the east side of the Aimco center-tower at the Flamingo. Loved THAT one building despite the occasional frat party. Porn, who needed porn, with the Eros Guide Brazilian hookers that lived there? The bigmouthfuls.com were filming in the North Tower (one of the old buildings) there constantly!
EIRE
Both the westside & SOFI are greast hoods. You just need to see 10/15 buildings in both & other locations to feel the vibe yourself. Beach access & water views play a big factor obviously so if you’re not familiar with the area break out your 33139 sneakers . After you tour the buildings with your realtor revisit the locations by foot solo 10/11pm as well.
Wild Bill, South of fifth is not full of problems. The video you posted is about a loop hole that existed that allowed small hotels with a restaurant to seat as many people as they wanted in their restaurants and hence congesting ocean drive south of fifth. That video was posted by our association and hence you can see just how aggressive they are in dealing with any potential issue that can disrupt our lifestyle. How many other associations do you know that are that involved in this city? That loop hole has since been addressed. We have an active neighborhood association because there are numerous concerned educated individuals who live in this neighborhood that do not want to see what goes on north of fifth come into our neighborhood. We are relatively quiet, safe and I can tell you that as an almost native miamian (have lived in Miami 34 years) this is by far the best place that I have ever lived.
South of Fifth is designated a Residential zone for a reason. Its an easy $5 cab ride to Lincoln, but you can walk to the beach easily. West Avenue is a loooooooooong hot walk to the beach.
Besides, Lincoln Rd isn’t what it used to be.
I am looking for opinions on Neo Vertika. I have not seen it in person but I see the prices are dropping and I am interested in purchasing one of their 2 story (one bedroom) lofts sometime early next year. If anyone lives there or have visited, I would love any info.
P.S. If you happen to know how many floors in the parking garage because being assigned parking on anything over the 5th floor is a deal breaker for me.
As for the topic of this strand, Quantum. I have been there several times and I like the building overall but for some reason I get the feel of being at the Flamingo on South Beach whenever I am there. It seems like someday it will turn in to a party building. Everyone seems to be in there 20’s or early 30’s and relatively good looking (with a few exceptions).
The 12 parking garage floors sucks, though. My friend is assigned parking on the 11th floor. Good thing he is a renter and does not drive.
Anton,
I do not know what you are talking about, that the Quantum common areas being crappy! In fact if there is one thing I am wishful about, it is that the common areas of my building should look like that of Quantum. Their lounge areas are fantastik. Especially the duplex lounge facing the bay on the 11th and 12th floor. I agree that the Lobby is not dramatic or huge like the Plaza on Brickell or even the 1800 but is pleasing and does the job very well. If I were on the board of Quantum HOA (or even just a home owner) and if anyone suggests a $13 million special assessment to redo the lobby or common areas, I will personally wring their neck.
Neo,
You are very correct in your assessment. Quantum might eventually become the party building ala Flamingo etc. Yes the building is populated with the young and hip. That may be due to the fact that it is becoming very rental oriented, very conveniently located close to the UM and also because it has many many more studios and 1 BR’s compared to all other new buildings in the downtown/parkwest/OMNI areas which are geared heavily towards 2 BR and 3 BR apts. I dont know if it is good or bad (certainly a great Eye Candy though), but for a long term living I prefer the 1800 with its more homely and established feeling and still able to meet the cuties and the beauties at the Pace park in front!
AJ,
Fully agree with your observations. Lounge are at Quantum is really nice and gym is quite good too. I dont have a problem with the lobby….it is not a hotel but a residential building, so it performs the role appropriately. Parking is definitely a negative point and it will just be this way by design. Pressure should be placed on Terra to add mirrors on turns just to increase safety in general.
Hi everybody,
I am the owner of one of the lofts in Quantum.
I think that their lobby lacks paintings or any other forms of decorations. It has some but alot of empty walls. May be they did not install them yet. It takes about 1 years until the building settles so to speak and pays attention to details. I think that Quantum is a very funtional building in great location.
Eire,
There is a reason why your realtor suggested you these 3 buildings and not SOFI like all others are recommending. You must have expressed your interest to live on SOBE and experience the SOBE living and lifestyle. If I were your realtor, I would have done the samething and not redirect you towards SOFI or OMNI or Sunny Isles with better, newer buildings, neighborhoods and prices. If I am correct in what your requirement is you must definitely look into Waverly and Floridian. I hated Flamingo from day 1 and so I wont even attempt to discuss that building.
I like the Floridian for the views and location. The layout of the flats is not bad either. The hallways and the general quality of construction is bad as Unrelated has suggested due to the fact that they were made as rental buildings initially and they kind of slapped some $hit together to make those kind of buildings. Floridian is way way overpriced and not worth the money. The monthly maintenace is a killer there.
My favorite lines are Ist choice = Line 11 and 2nd choice = lines 12 and lines 1
Waverly used to be as overpriced as the Floridian but off late, there are many deals to be had there. Other than the High Maintenance just like the Floridian, I do not have any other major issues with the Waverly. Location cant be beat.
My favourite lines are 1st choice = Lines 1 and 2 and 2nd choice = Lines 7,8,13 and 14.
I cannot understand why the Quantum owners are griping about the building and feeling helpless. Is there no one in that building with some initiative and some testosterone? Do you guys have to put flyers on car windshield to talk to each other? Such a pity and a shame.
OK, this is what I have done:
I have first proposed to form a 1800 Club Home Owners Liaison Committee to have a dialogue with the developer to take care of things of common interest until he is ready to hand it over to the HOA and also so that the home owners can have a say in the affairs of the building until then.
I talked to a couple of likemindede people, drafted a call to meeting, asked the manager to put it up in all the common areas. Initially he was reluctant but I spoke to the developer directly and he gave the consent.
The first day, 31 owners showed up at the lobby (I was thinking that if I get 10 owners, I would be lucky!). For 5 committee positions, 12 people competed and there had to be elections! Finally we formed a committee and they made me the secretary (I did not want to be the chairman as I feel that it should belong to a more mature and dignified person LOL). We had a second meeting and we passed a lot or recommendations and resolutions and made a laundry list of things and gave it to the developer for consideration. Even though these recommendations are non-binding, they have a powerful group of home owners supporting them. The developer has graciously agreed to consider all of those issues and get back to us. But I also credit the developers of 1800 to be very good and decent people. I do not know if the other developers are as co-operative and as nice.
This is what you guys at Quantum or any other building has to do. Once you guys form a committee and eventually a HOA, I want to form a Master association of all buildings from the Grand to the Paramount Bay so that we can make the Pace Park area, the Envy of all of Miami. Any questions, e-mail me at this address I created just for the purpose of this committee [email protected]
Neo asked about opinions in NeoVertika (2 storey loft):
The one bedroom 2-story lofts are cool and hip, but not too practical…..the living room is so tiny, you can barely fit a normal sized couch there, but the bedroom is big enough to put two couches plus a bed…I was going to buy one myself, but didn’t want to live like that…prefer a larger living room.
Also, funcionality. For some but not all, living on two floors is an issue (can be a hassle) as well as the loft space…..again, nice to look at, but not good for privacy if you have guests in town….
good luck…I rented there for a year and got out…finishes are cheap in the kitchens as well…
Neo,
I spent a lot of time in Neo Vertika while looking for a place downtown. As AZ88 mentioned, the spaces are nice looking, but very impractical and lack function. The LR space is very small (which might explain why the pictures on the realtor sites only show that strange angle of the kitchen!). Can’t be more than 6-8 feet to the windows from the edge of the kitchen. And the other side is lost underneath the staircase. But worst of all, there is no real closet space. Also, I went by there one evening and in a couple of the units I visited, I could hear everything on the neighbor’s TV.
Good luck with your search!
Yes, NeoVertika walls are PAPER thin and the place is a college party zone….
Is the Quantum/Edgewater neighborhood zoned light commercial/residential like South Pointe in Miami Beach?
Rumor has it that the City of Miami needs more revenue, they’re going to rent out Pace Park to a Nikki Beach type club. It’s going to be called Edgewater Beach. 18 and under welcome.
No educated neighborhood associations in this area to stop it.
bring it on
Edgewater is just like South Pointe if you add in the hookers, drug dealers, homeless and then take away the beach and nice restaurants.
AJ visit some of the buildings in the area. Like Marina blue, 900 biscayne and 10 Museum you will puke once you go back to Quantum. Even an old crapy building like the Venetian has a nicer loby that Quantum. The furniture in the commoun areas won’t last a year as none of it is comercial grade nor tastefully picked.
Nikki beach has been in south pointe since time immemorial and way before we were here. Our neighborhood association has in fact limited the amount of noise they can make and their ours of operation. FYI, and truthfully it certainly doesn’t bother me or anyone else in this neck of the woods.
Trust me those 20k will turn into 80k in valuation per appartment, a big difference in value of the units in the building. Comparing to Quantum to Flamingo please…. Flamingo has the high grade hookers and bar/club/model crowd living there. All Quantum has is a bunch of low end call girls and strippers and a bunch of weird people living there at least that’s the impression I got when I visited the building.
anton,
I would have to agree with you that in fact, those other buildings do have nicer lobbies, but the reality is that they don’t compare in location. I would much rather live around Pace park than anywhere near that dilapidated area of downtown with all its urban decay still pretty raw to the naked eye. Those buildings had to be imposing in order to sell at the prices that they sold. Which incedently is my second point: quantum sold at much cheaper prices and hence has done relatively well in this terrible market in comparison to some of those buildings that you mentioned. Quantum is teeming with life and appears to be filling fast so to me it’s an issue of more affordable housing and therein lies its success.
Neo,
Next to NeoVertika is Latitude. You may consider buying in this building as well and you will get more options.
gustavo.
Anton,
Puhlease… Marina Blue and beautiful lobby in the same breath? Instead of industrial chic, it is industrial nightmare. 10 Museum Park? Now that is a stretch. Have you seen all around TMP? The building looks dilapidated outside already.
Come on, tell the truth and shame the devil. Are you an exclusive agent for a lot of the units in park west by any chance?
I completely agree with DLJ. Affordability with an acceptable level of luxury amenities is the reason why the Q and the 18 will succeed where others will fail and are failing.
Brickell and Sunny Isles will fail simply because there is tremendous amount of oversupply.
Parkwest, SOFI and some Luxury SOBE buildings will fail because of affordability issue(Overpriced and high HOA dues)
Midtown will fail because because the area is 5-10 years ahead of its time.
That leaves OMNI and its 4 new buildings
1. Opera: Utter and miserable failure because of breathtakingly overpriced for crappy and tiny units.
2. Paramount Bay: Very very high end. Great location, seems like a good construction and going to be great amenities but I am very afraid for its survival or success due to the affordability factor
3 & 4. Q and 18: Price per sf is half of the park west buildings and one third or even one fourth of some SOBE and SOFI buildings. Comparable amenities. The best location in all of Miami in terms of accessibility, congestion, noise levels, recreation facilities, views, art and cultural options and eateries. Rentals are on fire. The only new buildings out of the 50 odd new constructions in Miami with teeming life.
If Lucas can find a way to put those nice bar graphs of Occupation levels of these new buildings rather than closing rates, Q and 18 will come out on tops. Dont take my word. Go to these buildings and see it for yourself.
Bush and Paulson have a new mortgage gimmick:
White House Pushing Mortgage “Covered Bonds”
Thanks for the feedback on Neo Vertika. I suspected as much but i soooo wanted to live in a 2 story loft.
Another pointer for Quantum owners:
When you form a committee, assure the developer that you are not ganging up against him, even though that might be his first reaction.
I have successfully argued in front of the developer of 1800 that the recomendations that we are are proposing are actually in his interest. He has 30% of units yet to close which works out to 150 units. He has agreed that as he does not live in the building, he does not know the day to day issues or problems that are confronting the unit owners and he appreciates the effort. He has already cleared quite a few suggestions made by us and inthe process of doing the rest. By end July we are hoping that he would attempt and clear all the remaining items on the wish list.
In case of Quantum, your developer still holds 40% of units that are not closed. That translates into about 300 units. I heard that the south tower is doing very well but the north tower is still lagging behind quite a bit. That is a big trump card for you guys. Tell him that doing good things for the building and listening to you, the home owners will help him in clearing off his unsold stock quicker than otherwise.
Even if he is not going to be co-operative like the 1800 developer, at least form a committee or a group and put all the things of concern as a list and throw it on his table. If he does not tackle them and attempts to hand over the building to the HOA, you do have options at that stage. But putting everything on paper is the first step. Someone should take up the challenge.
Anton,
what is the name of the girl(s) there, certainly a plus eh? good selling point versus other buildings
Eire I’m surprised your broker mentioned those three buildings but left out the Mirador, where the units are larger and the prices are lower. After a couple of initial bumps the management is doing a fantastic job of running the building like a tight ship and values have largely been maintained.
And where else do you have those amenities? The gym is first rate, there’s a convenience store on the ground floor, a hairdressed, salon, laundry/dry cleaning pick up and delivery, business center, AND a luxury hotel (Mondrian) coming in next door.
Plus Starbucks across the street, Wild Oats supermarket down the street, and unobstructed views of the bay and the ocean that will never be obstructed because of the school in the foreground.
Mirador should definitely be a consideration.
Mirador was built in 1968. The cost to replace the windows with impact glass would be over ten thousand per unit. It should have never sold without a complete upgrade like the Mondrian. It will bite the owners in the ass one day.
AJ,
I can’t agree with you more about the Opera Tower. Not only is it overpriced, but of course very few of the 635 units closed. Of those few not many have ever been treated with respect whatsoever or held in any regard by the developer.
Not even parking assignments for those that closed has occurred. All the studios with no dishwasher or ovens. Although studios I understand are small, has anyone ever heard of no stove or dishwasher? Primitive is what I call that.
Interestingly enough, over the past 3 weeks there has been a massive number of workers on site and with no formal admission from anyone yet, 300 of the units have been apparently sold to a hotel chain. These 300 random rooms which will be scattered all over building will be a nightmare for current owners who paid so much to now have transient hotel guests in and out so frequently.
What was formerly the “customer service” office has now been changed to some sort of check-in area for the new rooms. The public laundry room on the 10th floor has been equipped with white towels and linens. Many of the staff who started with the building have recently been fired.
At the same time “Vista” no longer exists from what I heard and has changed their name. Anyone have any insight? Know any more about the chain that bought the 300 units?
It would be nice for once, (although a stretch) if a developer took more than 1 minute of interest in the buyers to at least have the common decency to let the few owners know what is happening when these deals are made.
Had to post this, although most of you have probably already read it…
Kim thanks for posting, I’m sure this will be the most talked-about article at work today.
I can’t understand how transients can get by security in the buildings, what with all the CCTV’s and all the HOA money spent on rent-a-cops… something tells me that the rent-a-cops are probably in on this.
This is a huge problem for all the buildings in the CBD. Instead of a typical apartment tower with ONE landlord, those towers have turned into buildings with say 500 landlords (most inexperienced). You never know how is moving in next door week by week.
Its much more chaotic than a pure apartment building, because at least then the apartment management will have some sort of control and standards.
Hi Linda,
Sorry to hear that. So it is true that Opera is turning partly into a hotel. I was under the impression that Tibor would reserve a certain number of floors for the hotel and buy out any owners who closed in those floors for a clean demarcation of the hotel/condo (ala Grand/Double tree?). Obviously he took the easy way out at the cost of the owners who have closed. At this point of time, the senile coot has no regard for either his reputation (which is in the toilet anyway) or any ethics (which he never had when he began this project). I have enquired back in 2005 to buy a 2 BR line 1 or line 2 and they were charging 599,000 for a 1050 sf condo. Even in the peak of the RE craze, I thought that is an insane price for a tiny space. At that time no one even had an idea how bad the fixtures and finishes would be in the Opera when it gets ready. The balcony has metal grills! And yes, open heating element coils for the stove and no dish washer and cheap appliances. Even in the peak, the 2 BR should not be worth no more than half the price. The developer got his 20% from the owners which has nearly paid for the cheap construction costs. So if anyone closes or not at this point, he will still make money by selling the rest of the units to hotels or just renting them out.
It is very difficult to deal with someone who has no shame or regard for his reputation. So the 25% homeowners who have closed are stuck. Very sorry indeed. Even though you all paid a hefty price for a so so unit, at least you have the location advatage. The best in Miami. So look at it as a silver lining in the cloud. What else can I say.
Linda said: “300 of the units have been apparently sold to a hotel chain. These 300 random rooms which will be scattered all over building will be a nightmare for current owners who paid so much to now have transient hotel guests in and out so frequently.
What was formerly the “customer service” office has now been changed to some sort of check-in area for the new rooms. The public laundry room on the 10th floor has been equipped with white towels and linens. Many of the staff who started with the building have recently been fired.
At the same time “Vista” no longer exists from what I heard and has changed their name. Anyone have any insight? Know any more about the chain that bought the 300 units?”
I can’t imagine any of the big franchisors (Hilton, Marriott, Westin, etc.) wanting anything to do with this type of arrangement. A 300 room urban hotel is a problem to operate ifthe property was built for that purpose. You would absolutely have to have restaurants, bars, room service and a ton of other outside amenities to make a 300 room hotel functional.
If true, this will be a “Hall of Shame” class disaster! I know Related is having problems with their “corporate hotel apartments” at 50 Biscayne, and that operation is limited to 80 ADJOINING rooms on the lower floors.
Who would operate this? You will know when you see the “Motel 6” or “Red Roof Inn” sign outside, perhaps 10-stories high in garish pink neon!
Unrelated,
Dont scare me man!
Flamingo… foreclosure central
I read some of you put that sunny isles has way too much supply, you may be right to some extent BUT, everyone who buys there is seriously from Russia, Czech Republic, Romania, etc. I don’t know how many of you actually spend time there ( I spend alot) but that place is full of foreign money, for that reason alone I think that Sunny Isles will be OK.
Hey AJ,
The “garish pink neoe sign” was a joke! (At least I hope so.)
Will Mr. Tibor soon be handing out skeleton keys from behind a iron bar grill to rent rooms by the hour? LOL
Un-related –
You are correct. A major flag hotel will not operate something like this. The building is not designed for a hotel.
Doesn’t a hotel have to get permits and approvals to operate? The plans submitted to the city should be for condominiums, and a hotel use completely changes the use it was approved for.
bc asked: “Doesn’t a hotel have to get permits and approvals to operate? The plans submitted to the city should be for condominiums, and a hotel use completely changes the use it was approved for.”
YES and these approvals are very difficult to obtain…..it would take years because every hotel operator in the area would file a ton of objection. Even the ZONING would have to be changed from multi-family residential to commercial / hotel.
That, and what about the existing lender and the agreed to loan provisions regarding useage?
The traffic patterns would be affected to accommodate “guests”. Like I said, Related even passed on a boutique chain” that was interested in the 80 rooms at 5o Biscayne.
Could you even imagine the daily slog by illegal Guatemalan cleaning ladies between condos the people bought for $400K?
Rather than a hotel, how about turning it into a minimum security correctional facility?
Any owners of Quantum want to ask the developer how many units are owner occupied and how many are rented? How many are rented by the developer?
Any owners of other new buildings care to do the same?
Post your answers.
The management office of a building can give that information. In fact the lending banks ask for this. The only instance of a developer renting out the unclosed units is the Opera as far as I know. Developers of Quantum, 1800 etc do not do such a thing. I dont know the plans for Park West, Downtown and Brickell buildings. I am sure Related buildings will not do that at least in the near future.
In 18 approximately 50% of the closed units are put up for rent or already rented (just an educated guess). In Q that number is higher as more owners who closed there have rented their units in that building (also from what I gather from talking to people. Not a solid fact)
Much appreciate all the info on the three communities. Anyone know what the noise level is in the three condo complexes? I’m concerned about how well the noise insulation is in the walls and especially the ceilings.
The other community recommended by my agent is the Cosmopolitan. Anything on that is appreceated.
Thank God, the Miami Condo Frenzy was not as big as thought…
hahahaha Miami Herald is the worst newspaper in the country, what a joke. they never publish anything worth a crap.
If you have an apartment in the Flamingo, do you get discounts with the Brazilian escorts? That would be a much better amenity than a steam room, pool or cinema room.
Sunny Isles is definitely not in danger of collapsing. Oil and gas money will keep it healthy for months to come.
What do you guys think about the Sunset Harbor Buildings. I like the location, close to Publix, Lincoln Rd, etc. and the views must be amazing east and west.
Sunset Harbor trades well. Good location. Only downside is all the tow truck companies in area. There is a rumor they are being moved.
Your wrote, “I can’t imagine any of the big franchisors (Hilton, Marriott, Westin, etc.) wanting anything to do with this type of arrangement. A 300 room urban hotel is a problem to operate ifthe property was built for that purpose. You would absolutely have to have restaurants, bars, room service and a ton of other outside amenities to make a 300 room hotel functional.
If true, this will be a “Hall of Shame” class disaster! I know Related is having problems with their “corporate hotel apartments” at 50 Biscayne, and that operation is limited to 80 ADJOINING rooms on the lower floors.
Who would operate this? You will know when you see the “Motel 6″ or “Red Roof Inn” sign outside, perhaps 10-stories high in garish pink neon!………………”
Vivid, the adult film XXX has deep pockets and strong financial backing. I have heard they purchased the 300 units at Opera Tower for the first flagship XXX hotel chain. What has others heard on this?
I’ve also heard that rumor. XXX industry already owns units in majority of South of Fifths newest buildings. They decided to consolidate into an entire luxury hotel/condo.
Hi Kim,
Thanks for posting the article. I have always been thinking and made to believe that there are 50,000+ units coming on line from 2003 to 2008. It is a great eye opener that only 22,000 units are coming on line in the same period. It looks like the other projects are all scrapped.
In the larger scheme of things, 22,000 new units of housing is not that much for a metropolitan city such as Miami. Believe it or not, hateful traffic (as per the latest rankings Miami is the worst traffic nightmare city in all of US, surpassing Atlanta, DC, LA etc) combined with $5 or $6 a gallon gas will make outlying Miamians scurry like rats towards these urban towers of conveniences. In 2 to 3 years, each one of these 22,000 units will be consumed by the end users.
Prime beachfront foreclosure opportunity.
In 2005, the Bath Club developer sells a condo (5959 Collins, #901) for $1.450 M. Bank acquires through foreclosure in 2007. The association is not paid dues, so they sue the Bank, get a judgment of $32 K, and a foreclosure sale date of June 27 is set.
Unlike most bank foreclosures where there is no equity because outstanding mortgage attaches to high bidder. This type of auction will wipe out defendant bank’s mortgage, and the bidding starts at $32 K!
Can’t say I’ve seen this before. Usually, the association dues owing by the bank would be paid before the association’s lawsuit, and certainly before the association obtains a judgment and sale date. The bank may have lost track of this one.
One of you with cash needs to follow this one.
I have no financial interest in this except to ask that if one of you steals this condo, pls let me occassionally borrow it.
Sorry, AJ: I was being a bit sarcastic. While I agree that 22K condos is better than 50K condos, it will take much bloodshed to absorb this in 2 to 3 years as you suggest. The fact of the matter is that these condos primarily appeal to urban workers — let’s say the professional class that works downtown; these urban professionals are already renting downtown or on the beach as it is. “[U]rban towers of convenience” are only so to singles and couples. Condos are not family oriented whatsoever. When I finally have children, I will abandon my current lifestyle of convenience for a larger, less expensive, suburban living in Pembroke Pines or Miramar or wherever the best school systems exist — just like all the urban professionals that I work with who have families. Yes, we will complain about the $5/gal, carpool it, hybrid it, whatever; we will leave extra early to account for traffic, and raise our children and die…
VIVIDXXX said”Vivid, the adult film XXX has deep pockets and strong financial backing. I have heard they purchased the 300 units at Opera Tower for the first flagship XXX hotel chain. What has others heard on this?”
Nothing and I won’t hold my breath. They would have to go through the permitting process with the City/County to operate a hotel or any other type of “service” business.
Besides, the “Bang Brothers” guy has got more local “grease” than Vivid from L.A.
about time on this one.
perez
the bank will knock that out before it goes to foreclosure
jcrimes, I also would have expected the bank to have paid the dues by now. But it is very odd that the Bath Club association had to sue the bank and got a judgment, including attorneys fees. the lawsuit was filed over 6 months ago, and the judgment was obtained over a month ago, and it still evidently has not been satisfied, and they only have a week left.
If they haven’t paid it next week, it would be worth a trip to the Courthouse. Odder things have happened in those foreclosures.
I dont know where they are getting 22k condos, what does that include? because just in downtown miami there are (completed or will be completed within the year) 12k condos, add brickell, design district, miami beach, kendall, etc. etc. and I think the number is WAY higher than 22k. so please someone tell me, where the hell did the number 22K come from.
Raffi 22 k is the number arrived by counting the condos between 195 in the north to Rickenbacker in the south and from I 95 in the west to the waters edge in the east. It does not include Kendall and other areas as you suggest. We are talking about an extended downtown area in the true sense of an urban living.
AJ
Further to your previous comments—2-3 years to absorb all those units downtown?
It, my friend, will take much longer than 2-3 years.
It would be interesting to know what information your are using to arrive at your number.
Anybody read this?
yes, but the silver lining is that Lori, the manager of the Vue took credit for a lot of what was already done by other hard working professionals before she got there if we are to believe an ex occupant of the Vue. She actually misrepresented her experience and hired her friends and gave herself a raise as well as to all her friends in a quite distressed building. She apparently is a racist who fired spanish speaking valets and has in essence pulled off a publicity stunt with the help of the incompetent Miami Herald. Please read the comments on that article to get the whole story.
I posted this on a different thread but I want to post it here too as I mentioned about Quantum in that subject:
“Hi Lazaro Alonso,
This is also for those who are petrified of their building management and staff,
Can you guys be a little more stand up for your rights please? If this happened to me, I would not sleep until that offending staff member is kicked out of the building or the management is taken to task. Is this turning out to be a nation of ninnies or what? You are paying for the salaries of these people. They are your servants, not your masters. Yes rules have to be followed. I fully agree with that. That does not mean the staff run rough shod over the home owners. After all rules are made by the home owners (at least when the HOA forms).
In the 1800 club , we all do enjoy a midnight dip in the pool. My friends at Quantum always complain how they get thrown out of the pool after sundown. It is what you make out it. I tell people in the 18, “If you respectfully and quitely swim at night, it should never be a problem for anyone”.
I never understand this pool timings of Sunrise to Sunset in most buildings. What the hell does it have to do with anything? Insurance? Liability? They are not paying for a lifegaurd to stay overtime or anything like that. In any case 90% of the people get home only by sunset after they finish their work.
My point is, if it is a good and reasonable rule, fine, but if it is an arbitrary unjustified rule, stand up to it, canvass against it and change it.
And so if Lazaro is showing his kids the gym at Marina Blue under his supervision and taking pictures, no jerk in the staff should ask the kids to leave. They or the management should be able to ill treat the home owners only at the expense of their jobs. How dare they!”
AJ, for your comment to make sense
“Believe it or not, hateful traffic (as per the latest rankings Miami is the worst traffic nightmare city in all of US, surpassing Atlanta, DC, LA etc) combined with $5 or $6 a gallon gas will make outlying Miamians scurry like rats towards these urban towers of conveniences. ”
To make people in outlying areas move inward, you either will have to have a lot of 100K+ jobs appearing in downtown Miami or prices will have to plummet some more.
I’ll take the latter. Also, what is convenient about living in these urban towers if that doesn’t bring you close to an imaginary 100K+ job? If you go to Boston, NY or Chicago, it’s fun to live in the city cause you can never run out of things to do in the city. They are VIBRANT cities with great public transportation to everywhere you’d want to go. Not so in Miami. It’s got alot of catching up to do to make the city a destination.
AJ
What “spin?”
There is no “spin” at all, anywhere on my site.
I’m simply a conduit of information—whatever that information may be.
Yes, you should have apologized for that comment. You can not like what I do. What you cannot do is state something here that is not at all true.
As for “laying off each other”—I’ve never “layed into” you. I don’t know who you are. You are annonymous. I am not. I stand by what I say.
Hi JL,
I agree with you. There are no decent jobs in Miami downtown for people to live close to their work. I am just hoping that corporations would move to Miami from Atlanta, Boston, Chicago and Cincinnati. With the real estate being so cheap and no state income taxes, I do not not know why the big corps are reluctent to move here. Hurricanes are a lame excuse. Talent is not there right now but who would refuse to move from Houston or Hartford to Miami if offered a decent job. I really want this to happen as I love Miami and it is where I will be living. I want it to be a Vibrant city with everything that New York and London has to offer. So a little bit of wishful thinking is not bad. I am very sure one day Miami will join the ranks of the great cities of the world.
AJ,
hate to burst your bubble, but Miami will never , ever join the ranks of world-class cities. It will sooner be the next Caracas than the next Manhattan. America’s third world. nice weather. lots of silicon ladies trying their hardest to extend their “use-by” date. Nothing more.
JL
you are right indeed about NY, Boston and Chicago having a greater urban base and having higher paying jobs. But, I’ll tell you what they don’t have and that is our climate. I have lived up north and absolutely loved it, but I would never trade Miami for any of the above. A lot of those well to do individuals who live up north, but thanks to internet technology have bought places down here and are spending winters here in Miami. Yes, I agree that it would be great for big companies to come this way and I am sure that in due time they will come. Along with the occupants of these towers will come the infrastructure to downtown. Public transportation has and continues to be a big concern for me and I believe for us all. We really need to elect responsible legislators who are not corrupt to tackle this problem. It really remains our achilles heal. That being said, we are not collapsing as was prognosticated and I still believe in our magic city.
Moving Metro,
I think its sad that you feel that way, but you know what: there is a lot of us who believe in this city and its potential so if you don’t that’s ok. If Miami is third world than leave me in the third world, but I have to tell you… I have been all over the world and I have never seen a city in the third world that even came close to what we are today. By the way, I wouldn’t put caracas down… there is a lot of money in Caracas. As to the financial abilities of this city, just ask any banker and you might just think very differently.
Does this NY times article means that my units in Miami will also have competetion from renters too? I placed a carig list ad for my NYC unit and I got 35 responses in a week and people were literally begging me to consider them for the unit. I never had such a problem of plenty.
WASHINGTON — Driven largely by the surge in foreclosures and an unsettled housing market, Americans are renting apartments and houses at the highest level since President Bush started a campaign to expand homeownership in 2002.
The percentage of households headed by homeowners, which soared to a record 69.1 percent in 2005, fell to 67.8 percent this year, the sharpest decline in 20 years, according to census data through the end of March. By extension, the percentage of households headed by renters increased to 32.2 percent, from 30.9 percent.
The figures, while seemingly modest, reflect a significant shift in national housing trends, housing analysts say, with the notable gains in homeownership achieved under Mr. Bush all but vanishing over the last two years.
Many of the new renters, meanwhile, are struggling to get into decent apartments as vacancies decline, rents rise and other renters increasingly stay put. Some renters who want to buy homes are unable to get mortgages as banks impose stricter standards. Others remain reluctant to buy, anxious that housing prices will continue to fall.
read the full article by clicking http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/us/21renters.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Looks like a nice building, but will it be over crowded when/if it fills up? I would prefer 1800. Any thoughts on Emerald at Brickell?
Hi Miami 2008,
The best line in 1800 just came on the market on June 6th. 2805 is on the MLS asking for 479,000. It is a 2/2 with spectacular bayviews. I think for line 5 at that height is a decent price but if you are serious, why dont you knock off another 50k or 60k and throw in a lowball offer and see if it sticks. I do not want my building prices to slide but it is what it is, and I want this sites bloggers to benefit.
I will shout at the top of my lungs once again for all those who care to listen, please take a look at 1800 and if you find a good deal in lines 5 and 7 grab it. Those views will never be made again or do not exist elsewhere.
Especially lines 5 and 7 are on the MLS for $400/sf – $500/sf and over. If you can get a deal on those from a desperate seller, you should consider it seriously. This tip is only for the end users, not investors. You will be very happy in 1800.
Yep at that price it’s still overpriced. That sucker needs to be in the low to mid 300’s if at that.
Also FYI..to all. News in the Miami Herald today that Related has closed up shop on Viceroy SOBE sales and is returning deposits. Another one bites the dust.
Realted makes some nice projects but they keep insiting that their buildings are worth so much more and try desperatley to hold their value which I agree if you live in it you appreciate that but it’s like stocks it goes up and down and if somethings not worth as much then it has to sell at a lower price so stop trying to keep something high when in reality it’s not.
If they were to lower their prices make them all affortable the towers would fill up and then people would be willing to pay more to buy into the building after that. No supply in a “good” building will equal more demand.
AJ,
I wanted to comment on your post on rents which was posted on the New York Times. I think that there is a semblance of that same momentum in Miami. Back in February I had 3 units for rent in different areas of Miami (SOFI, Pace park and Coral Gables). I, for sure thought that I would get stuck with these units for a while and let me tell you that in three months time I rented everything for the price that I originally wanted (give or take 100 dollars). So I can attest that the rental market in Miami is certainly moving. I had a few realtors approach me on my SOFI unit asking for deep discounts and I basically told them to go fly a kite. In the end, I got a two year lease from a French business man who paid me what I was asking. So, yes I believe the rental market is more sanguine than what we originally perceived.
By the way, I want to let you know that I have enjoyed your comments and I look forward to reading them. You are a great asset to the Pace Park area and I usually whole heartedly agree with you except that I do like Quantum a little bit more than 1800. I believe that Pace Park is gold and I think the future will speak for itself; otherwise, I would have sold my unit at quantum instead of renting it which by the way is still selling for more than I bought it for. Keep up the good work.
Once again,
that is great news. We don’t need any more construction period. The less that we build the better it will be for all during this period.
Hi DLJ,
Thanks for the kind words. Yes Pace park is Gold and only those on the know will know. You and me will be proved right in 2-3 years from now. I almost harass all my friends to buy into the Q and 18. I tell them that there is now a best kept secret in Miami and they are called the Q and 18. I tell them to get in now before the whole world knows about it cause in a a few years only millionaires can afford the east facing 2/2’s in both the buildings. I wouldnt be doing this to my friends if I am not convinced 101% about these two buildings.
And by the way, you must not explain yourself why you like Q more than 18. You live there and you have a great east facing unit (Line K #02) if I am not mistaken. Both have their strong points and Both are Class A buildings.
Jade and Santa Maria can kiss my a$$. Actually I keep meeting those blokes in front of my beloved park running there dogs. I ask them incredulously “what makes you load your pet in a car and drive here from Brickell?” . They tell me there is no such place in Brickell or even all of Miami. Case closed.
Surprise, surprise.
Terra Beachside Villas in Miami Beach is in trouble. 24 liens on the property. construction is halted. 35 lawsuits.
Could see this coming a mile away. Easily the worst location for a condo building. Surrounded and only a few feet from major roads on each side. I feel like i’m about 10 feet away from the building windows when I drive by.
http://southflorida.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2008/06/23/story6.html
aj,
i dont want to sound rude or ” jealous” as you would think but… can we please hear something from you other then praises about Q or 1800. it is just steel and concrete. you make it seem as if you are obssed with the property. please surprise us and talk about something new. follow the market and stop going off topic in every thread to talk about Q or 1800. it is not that serious please. just leave Q or 1800 out of one comment i promise u, you will be ok.
now you can reply with ” well then dont read this blog or my comments.”
while miami downtown (a glorified ghetto) may have “only” 22000 units coming up, do not forget the competing residential units in other parts of miami-ftl MSL. Besides, the SFH’s have multiplied that coocaracha in many areas like homestead, west broward (miramar), royal palm (palm beach) and dozens of other places.
The real crunch for city/county begins in earnest from this this fiscal (july onwards)
florida economy i believe is ~20% down (from ~70 billion). The reduction in county/city work force is coming on full force.
The construction industry is in deep recession. And what i hear from my sources, companies that have been keeping folks on payroll in anticipation of an uptick now reaching a cliff edge.
Besides, the malaise has yet to hit across the Atlantic.
andiron,
yes, there is no question that the downturn in the housing market is much more far reaching than Miami proper. It is global and yes, countries like Spain, Ireland, France, Italy U.K. etc are only starting to feel the pangs of the bite, but in this blog we can only take dade county as a source of reference. This supposedly was the worse place in the nation (or second after las vegas or california) and the reality is that we are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel. It might still be very dim and I for one believe that we still have at least 2 more years of a shaky market, but we are not sinking and those that think that they are going to be able to buy units for under construction costs, well will just leave that topic alone. The reality is that if the city only operates with the budget of 2003 which is a far cry of what they are receiving today, tough. Its not like we have more schools, more police, more fire stations, any real public transportation etc. In fact, taxes have sky rocketed and they remain another impediment to growth in this state and particularly in this market. Miami-Dade has great potential and its equivalent of its growth domestic product has grown exponentially every year. What we have presently is fat government using money to plant trees along the highway since they don’t know what else to do with the landslide of cash that they have received in the last couple of years. The city of Miami is coming into a huge pot of gold from its new condos which will be in excess of 7,ooo per unit. To me that’s high way robbery, but that’s the fact and as you know its not like these buildings are full so who is going to provide extra services and to whom?? Miami Dade will be just fine… As to downtown being a glorified ghetto, well if I am not mistaken the definition of a ghetto is a hopeless place where angst and misery abound… I don’t think that we are referring to the same place. If anything its a place where opportunity and new life are sprouting from every angle.
That terra beachside villa is a disaster. I’ts literally in the middle of the street! Who would buy that? Far from “beachside” yes a block east is the beach but man the location is ridicoulous. It’s ws liek buuilding in he middle of I95. Bad move however bought in. No views either you look at other buildings any which way yuo put it
IT would have to be a real steal to get anyone to buy here unless you just wanted that location.
About time Related started canceling projects, any word if Loft 3 wil get ditched too? Last thing we need is another building in that area.
Get over it,
Hi, Nothing wrong in gushing about your new lover and praising the virtues. I sure talk a lot about the Q and 18 but if you look back, there are a lot of topics I have touched unrelated to these 2 buildings. There are a lot of other projects and neighborhoods I have talked about in a positive light. This particular thread is about Quantum and so the topics tend to be a bit heavy about Q.
Get over it-
Right on man!
“You guys need to get jobs already.”
So do most real estate agents…
Again with my urban planning /new urbanist hat on, all of you who bought in 1800 Club or Quantum or anywhere in the Arts District/Midtown are currently “pioneers”, but damn smart pioneers.
Downtown Miami is in the middle of an urban renaissance (as are most post-automobile developed cities- Atlanta, Houston, San Diego…I could go on) this is a backlash to suburban sprawl- a sense of isolation, long commutes and unsustainable living that the suburbs provide.
All those who say to buy now give good advice, because 10 years from now, or pessimistically 15, I guarantee you Miami will be a kickass city with a full mix of uses- residential – most importantly, retail, civic-cultural venues like the Performing Arts Center, public transportation, green spaces, pedestrian friendliness & with a “vibrancy” that rivals Chicago or NY, etc! But with an awesome climate too! No dreary, depressing winters like up north.
And we will marvel that you could get a unit for 200-300 psf in ‘08 or rent a huge 2 br for less than 2 grand a month. For those of you who can’t see it, you are blinded by your ignorance.
Plus the grassroots of the New Urbanism movement started here in Miami with all the best planners in the country. I give them credit for what has transpired so far and will continue on.
One last thing, you can already see HUGE changes in the downtown in just the past few years.
I, for one, am so excited to be a first-hand witness to the evoluton of this “magic” city as it is transforming getting better and better.
It is beyond exciting! So although I say 10 to 15 years in my last post, Miami will improve in increments every year, just like it has been. The change has been gradual and will continue to be gradual, but it’s there.
la la
notwithstanding your conclusory statements and conclusions, you are a fool for thinking that local gov’t here has the ability let alone the financial wherewithal to ever make miami a world class city. nor will any self respecting fortune 500 ever relocate to this town.
Regarding Terra –
I met with the lender about 4 months ago to buy the note for my fund, seeing as how the lawsuits and liens were piling up. I made them a considerably fair offer, given where the market is heading, and they turned it down without a counter.
They told me that construction was moving along as planned and the price point on the units was low enough to attract a number of user-types, and they weren’t worried.
I wonder if they’ll be singing a different tune now.
“It’s ws like building in he middle of I95”
That is a good example! Maybe the developer will next build a condo on top of the 836 tollbooth! Maybe that strip of grass under the Golden Glades…. So much vacant land they can build condos out there…
How many world class cities are there anyways? Maybe a handful of which all of them have been established for at least 500 years and most of them for over 1000 years. We are only slightly over 100 years old and most of our growth has taken place in the past 30 years give or take. As a collective economy Miami-Dade would be the 47th largest economy in the world if it were to act as an independent unit. We have two world renown Universities and the most successful community college in the Nation (or is a four year institution by now); We have cutting edge Medical Research going on in our back yard(My field); We are the gateway to Latin America with every major latin american bank with a HUGE presence in this city. We have growing coffers as the tax base expands. We have school systems that are improving by the second. We have relatively cheap housing in comparison to just about any other metropolis in this country… so tell me what fortune 500 company wouldn’t want to be a part of this.
DLJ….fortune 500 companies that mostly do business in the US (not latam) dont come to Miami because of the lack of an educated english speaking workforce.
Carbonblackcab,
I grew up in this city and was educated in this city, all the way from elementary to medical school. Please, the vast majority of college grads in this city speak impeccable English and can compete with anyone anywhere. The percentage of college grads in Miami is not any lower than the average American city and in fact it is slightly higher. Also, EVERY fortune 500 company does business with latin america…. and hence you would find a bilingual educated work force in Miami, that no other American city has when you consider the numbers of educated Spanish speakers versus lets say LA or NYC.
There is richness in diversity; it is an asset and not a flaw.
I would defend being called a fool, but DLJ seems to have done that already (and far more eloquently than I could have – thank you DLJ!)
Only time will tell what is in store for Miami, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see. What I see in present day Miami is a far cry from the Miami I was greeted with when I came here in ’94 from Chicago to do my two Masters. Shudder.
I too see and appreciate the diversity offered in Miami- I regret so badly not taking my Father’s advice to learn Spanish when I was younger, it would be a great asset for me now.
Jcrimes, I hope someday you are forced to eat your words, we’ll see, but I have a strong feeling you will. Besides, I wasn’t thinking of attracting Fortune 500 companies, I was thinking of quality of life for everyday people like me.
it is not the upper end of the workforce that is the problem in Miami, it is the backroom workforce. You cannot find quality secretaries, assistants, etc to actually rely on to complete work on time. until this changes, your ability to conduct large scale business will be limited in the south florida area. this means doctor offices and hospitals that no longer misplace/lose patient files, businesses which execute documents on time, government agencies which do not waste your time, etc. i enjoy living in the south florida climate, but there exists a lack of work ethic among many here who hold back the potential. people make major mistakes in their work here and dont think twice about the time/cost it creates-no major national/international business will take a risk on this type of work force.
people will continue to live and spend time here, but few will risk their business life on this workforce.
I totally agree with Work Ethic. Your business is as strong as the weakest link in the chain. Yes you can attract top quality talent from NY, LA, Chicago for 70-80K/year (Yes there are enough sane and willing people ready to give up $100-120K jobs to move to Miami with a paycut). But the suppost staff that get paid no more than 24-36k/year in Miami is the biggest weak link. At that level, I am sorry to say that the local talent is mediocre at best and abominable at worst, lacking work ethic or even the necessary skills. That may also stem from the fact that Miami is sub-tropical and the Iberian susegad siesta-fiesta culture has been ingrained in the people for eons. It will have to change eventually and I hope it will be sooner than later.
Jcrimes, If I want to do business with Sao Paulo or Santiago, I won’t be head quartering in Cincinnati or Chicago. I will be looking for an office space in Miami. With the booming Brazil, Chile and other economies, there is no other way but for the fortune 500 companies to acknowledge the importance of Miami or risk becoming fortune 500-1000. I hope that in not too distant future, Miami average wages would rise in step with the rest of the nations industrial cities and also the talent level of the mid and low level workers.
la la,
I couldnt agree more with your assessment. If you look back to the depressed 80’s when Brickell was overbuilt and any joe shmoe could afford to get into Brickell. Do people have such small memories? Those who paid a few thousands for Brickell units in the 80’s became objects of desire in the 2000’s, not withstanding the current meltdown.
10 years from now, your son or daughter will be saying to you, “dad/mom, why didnt you pick up a unit in Miami in those bleak years of 08 and 09, We can never dream of affording one now.”
DLJ,
It has been proven that people who speak more than one language are smarter and more open to the world, adapt, learn and prosper better than those with a single language skills. In that sense the bi-lingual population of Miami must have an advantage over English only or Spanish only speaking population. When right opportunities come along, they shine better than the others. I am a very strong advocate of multilingualism. All Europeans speak 2 or 3 languages. So do the French Canadians, Indians, Brazilians etc. (I speak 4 and I am very proud of that). Most Americans speak English only and most South Americans speak Spanish only. That puts the bilingual/trilingual Miamians who speak English, Spanish, Protuguese at an advantage and the they must be fully taken advantage of.
And oh yes, I forgot to add, by sheer numbers, there are more bi-lingual Spanish-English speakers in NYC, Houston or LA than Miami but with one major difference. They are not as educated as the bi-linguals of Miami. That puts Miami at an advantage over these other cities.
Quotes are from DLJ:
“Miami-Dade would be the 47th largest economy in the world if it were to act as an independent unit. ”
Where did you get that figure from and how is that defined. Can you break it down as a mean income per individual?
“We have two world renown Universities…”
Only if your world is Cuba
“We have cutting edge Medical Research ”
Atlanta, Baltimore, Birmingham, Chapel Hill, Charlottesville, Cleveland, Columbus, Durham, Saint Louis, New Haven, Hanover, Houston, Iowa City, Madison, Nashville, Pittsburgh, Portland, Rochester and Salt Lake City (to name a few much more affordable cities) have much more cutting edge medical research. What does that prove?
Plus the biggest reason you won’t get responsible (ie. family oriented) middle managers and execs to move dow to Miami is the secondary education system down here is mediocre at best. It just doesn’t hold a candle to the Public school system in the NorthEast -even Pittsburgh-.
The main priority in Miami is to be close to the beach, nightlife and models. The main priority in the Northeast is to live in the best school district for your kids. That should tell you all you need to know. Miami has weather and beauty and the North East has brains, values and a work ethic, and let’s keep it that way.
JL,
Let me refer you to the Social and Economic Development Council Miami-Dade County Department of Planning and Zoning
Planning Research Section. Please read the report and you might learn a thing or two about our local economy. I heard the figure in an economic forum that was disseminated in our local governmental channel about six months ago and I believe it was the Beacom council that propagated the info. I wish I could break it down for you, but I am not an economist and I don’t have the raw data. All of the cities that you mention have research institutions much older than what we have here and in just 20 years we have established an industrial/medical research facility that with the exception of you, no one laughs at. We have grown by leaps and bounds and the majority of the cities that you state have actually contracted. However, I unlike you would never make an unamerican remark by insulting any American city (and particularly the one that I grew up in nourished me and educated me) as this is my country and I love every inch of it and all its people irrespective of where their roots may be from. Again, public schools here were neglected and underfunded for years and years… in the last 20 years we have established free magnet school programs that are competing with with any magnet schools in the nation. Yes, we still have problems in our inner city schools as does every city you just listed. Each and everyone, without exception. I can think of many a public school in NYC, Boston and to use YOUR example Pittsburgh that I wouldn’t even think of driving by them, much less walking into them and what does that prove…nothing. There are bad schools and great schools in each and everyone of those cities.
If your main priority is to be close to the beach, nightlife and hanging around models since I am assuming you live here (and if you don’t please tell us what your experience is with Miami) then we are very different types of people. Our economy doesn’t run on ganging out in the sand and chasing models after we wake up from hangovers…get real and speak responsibly.
also, as per your derogatory remark about our institutions of higher learning…you sound real ignorant at best and a xenophobe at worst. Do some research as to what we are actually doing here. Do you really think that parents in this city make decisions about housing based on where the beach is located?? If we are to believe your remarks parents here are less responsible and apparently hold their children in lesser esteem. You make blanket statements about our population, insult their intelligence and furthermore have the effrontery to say lets keep it that way. Get help.
Well said DLJ, you are an asset to this city and extremely well-read and knowledgable on many topics. Frankly, I’m surprised you dignified such simple-minded, bigoted nonsense with a response.
Quotes are from DLJ:
“I heard the figure in an economic forum that was disseminated in our local governmental channel about six months ago and I believe it was the Beacom council that propagated the info. I”
Huh?
“If your main priority is to be close to the beach, nightlife and hanging around models ”
Hmm, why else would you buy in a downtown/SoBe condo? It’s like these people that move South of Fifth and complain about the nightlife. This isn’t the suburban Pinecrest housing blog. If you are looking at a Downtown/SoBe condo, I have to believe the public school system isn’t high on your priority list.
“We have relatively cheap housing in comparison to just about any other metropolis in this country… so tell me what fortune 500 company wouldn’t want to be a part of this.”
To be accurate, we have relatively cheap housing compared to Manhattan, but atrociously expensive housing relative to Cleveland or Pittsburgh. I was trying to show you the flip side of the coin. You can take a city like Cleveland, Ohio and argue persuasively it is far more advanced than Miami using metrics like education and cutting edge research. This mindset and nonsense talk that Miami is right up there with places like NY and Chicago in metrics outside of weather is a bunch of gobbly gook. Miami’s got the weather and the models, and if you lost both, guess what? Cleveland or Pittsburgh would be a much better place to live because there is nothing else that differentiates Miami from other mid-tier cities. It’s all about the weather and the models (now going porno) down here. Face it and enjoy it.
I read a while back that downtown Miami was going to do like Chicago did and go from lakefront back with exciting new buildings and make itself a hot dsstination–it seems to on its way. That “gold” park needs to curb the dogs or the glitter will be gone as a place to play.
Let me preface by saying I love Miami and love living here.
Now, let’s be serious AJ and La la, Miami will never be a top tier city in the like of London, New York, Hong Kong or Paris. They all have one thing we do not and will not have in the near future: A viable public transportation system. Ding!!!! This is incalculable in making a city livable and progressive.
And the education system in Miami is not on par with other cities. It is not the worst or near the worst but it does not hold a candle to the Northeast.
Last, being bi-lingual does not make you more educated or smarter, educated people just tend to be more likely bi-lingual.
La La,
It’s not that most people do not want to buy these condos or do not see the long-term opportunity. The fact is these condos are still too expensive for the majority of Miamians.
What couple making median income or even higher in Miami can afford a half-million ocean view condo? In order for Miami to reach the heights you think are possible in future, these condos have to reach a price level that will be comfortable for a local making a decent salary. That price level has not been reached yet.
JL,
I never stated that Miami was like NYC or Chicago. We clearly agree that it is not. I am just arguing about its potential. If it was, then I think that real estate would be a lot firmer and we would all be reaping the benefits. Where I live or buy for investment and lifestyle purposes has nothing to do with Miami at large or its population or its intelligence. You can’t extrapolate from bloggers here and investors as to what the rest of the city is doing. The reality is that couples with children aren’t moving to downtown and I think you know that so for God’s sake, be reasonable. Cleveland and Pittsburgh are in fact cheaper than Miami, but let me ask you… where would you rather live? Unfortunately, there are entire neighborhoods in Cleveland that have been almost abandoned due to foreclosure and the value of the median home has plummeted. The same story in Pittsburgh, but to a slightly lower extent. Now, JL, I believe in putting my money where my mouth is… Do you have any real estate investments in any of these cities…..didn’t think so. Also, when I was talking about cheap housing in comparison to just about any other metropolis, I meant successful ones, that ones whose economies were faltering. If you are a porno fan, great and please enjoy. Our constitution guarantees you with the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I would like to add that there are a lot of middle age to elderly empty nesters also moving in to your so-called “porn” areas. These are the people who generally gravitate to expensive condos as well as not so young single professionals. They do it for the security and the convenience that condo living offers. But hey, if you think the middle aged and the wealthy elderly are involved in porn, well what can I say.
also you mention weather as it was almost a secondary issue that one can just brush aside and keep looking forward. Well let me tell you, its a lot more than that; if you have ever lived up north (which I can presume you have) you know what the bleak long dark winters can do to one’s psychological health. It is a MAJOR factor in quality of life and I don’t think that you can deny that. It is OUR forte and it will be what will catapult this city forward beyond your wildest expectations.
I sent you the name of the agency that is responsible for assessing and documenting our local economy. It is a nice PDF article which answers any question you may have. Just google it; it was done in May. Again, JL I am not an economist and I can’t argue like one; but the above agency and the Beacon Council can. Just google them and you’ll see.
DLJ.
I believe in Diversity and think that being multi-lingual is a great thing. I speak 4 languages and live in miami because of the diversity.
I think the lack of qualified english speaking people in Miami area is mainly due to lack of “real” diversity. Miami is latin diverse. People from Asia, Africa, Europe, etc represent a tiny minority.
For miami to be a true internaltional city, it has to attract non-latin people. Without it, miami will always be a play ground for the rich, beautiful and famous.
JL,
Your comments might be somewhat close to reality 30 years ago when Miami was just a small town- a resort town.
Miami is now the 4th largest urban agglomerate in the US after New York, LA and Chicago, beating Houston, Baltimore, Philly, Boston, DC etc. It is the 44th largest in the World.
You must fast forward to 2008.
Storm,
No one said regular Joe Shmoe should live in an ocean view condo or a bay view condo. In any city, they are an exclusive domain of the rich. So please do not make the unaffordable water view apartments as an example.
There are quite a few units in the Lofts, Neo Verticas, Cynergies and Midtowns affordable to the Teachers and firefighters.
If you can russle up $200,000 you can even get in the fancy 18 and Q with little or partial water views. If that is not called affordability, then I guess no one can buy even in Shaker Heights, Cleveland.
My point is Miami is becoming affordable to the middle class once again and that is a good thing. If I can buy a 2/2 in the sky in a fancy building with water views stretching to the ends of the earth, then any one can afford Miami. And I am not even rich.
carbonblackcab,
Yes I agree, it would make us even more representative of the whole world as a whole and would make us more competitive. No argument from me there. Where I would argue is that you say that we don’t have qualified English speaking people in Miami. I beg to differ, look around you, they are everywhere. I, like you speak 4 languages and I consider that my greatest talent. I learned them all in this city and per capita we probably have one of the greatest number of multilingual people anywhere in the nation. Multilingual people (more than 2 languages) are rare in America, but quite common in Europe, but I think that this will change as the world becomes a small village in the near future.
la la,
thank you for your kind words, they are appreciated.
AJ,
Yes, there are some reasonable deals out there but they are not a reason to rush into buying a condo in downtown, edgewater, or brickell right now. They are some 1 bedrooms on the market for a decent price but when you add in taxes and maintenance, they lose their affordability.
I would rather rent and use the extra money to travel. Anyways, Lucas has given us a new topic, yeah!!
La La and DLJ are great boosters for the city, but Miami is not competitive with other major US cities.
Prevailing wages are less than in northern cities. Locals are unable to afford the high end new construction and the real estate market has been sustained by wealthy people who have earned their money elsewhere.
There has been a culture of fraud and mismanagement which has been tolerated and has kept many from entering the market.
DLJ,
I like South Floriduh for the weather and the nightlife and the water, and so does everybody else. I know what this area is about and I would never try to hype it for more than what it is… You made a bunch of statements extolling Economic/Intellectual virtues about Miami that are rooted in obfuscations or fantasy. We all know that Miami weather is great; that is not a point of contention. You made a bunch of hype statements to reason why Fortune 500 companies should come to Miami. Once again, quotes are from DLJ:
“As a collective economy Miami-Dade would be the 47th largest economy in the world if it were to act as an independent unit”
I basically asked you what you meant by this and you basically said you don’t know what it meant, but you still posted it anyway. Fine. Typical for South Floriduh, if enough people repeat anything and it sounds impressive, it has to be fact.
If you are going to post something like that, at least research it a little bit first. Good thing you didn’t throw out a statement like that with Chris Matthews on Hardball. Youtube ‘Kevin James appeasement”
“We have two world renown Universities and the most successful community college in the Nation”
I won’t argue the community college part because I have no idea about that. On the other hand, I have a lot of experience with world-renowned universities and I’d like to know what world you live in to make a statement like that. We don’t have 1 world-renowned university down here, let alone 2.
“We have cutting edge Medical Research going on in our back yard(My field)”
To somebody who knows medical research, your statement has no importance. It’s as revelatory as saying we have water fountains in Miami. But, to a casual reader of this blog, that might confuse them to think Miami is something special in terms of medical research when it is not. U Miami was 45th in terms of NIH funding, #44 was Univ. of Cincinnati and #46 was U Texas at San Antonio. Does Miami even have any HHMI investigators?
DLJ, Miami is Miami and it ain’t no Philadelphia and it certainly ain’t no Boston or New York. This is Floriduh, enjoy the world class weather and the world class duh… I know I do.
Funny how your arrogance knows no bounds. NIH is just one element of funding in Research. Drug companies are far wealthier than the NIH and they fund a hell of a lot that no one else funds. So the 45th ranking means relatively little. I have never said that other cities don’t have significant research bases, just that ours is pretty important. The Miami Center to cure paralysis is world renown and a pioneer in this field anywhere in the world. The diabetic research going on here for children particularly is incredible… the list goes on and on, but I’ll leave it at that because, after all this is “floriduh” right.
you stated…
“If you are going to post something like that, at least research it a little bit first. Good thing you didn’t throw out a statement like that with Chris Matthews on Hardball. Youtube ‘Kevin James appeasement”” I told you where the info came from… reread my blog. I guess that had I done so that would of been comparable to your statement that “Plus the biggest reason you won’t get responsible (ie. family oriented) middle managers and execs to move dow to Miami” showing your bigotry by equating family oriented and responsibility. Hmm, so tell me individuals without a family are irresponsible? also, maybe you are here only for the world class weather and the porno… certainly that is your prerogative, but the rest of us are here for more bonafide reasons… so please don’t insult our intelligence.
tell me…since you know so much about our universities what is wrong with them…in what area are we deficient and what would you change about them. They are not Ivy-league if that is what you are referring to, but they are nothing to scoff at. Their percentage of international students is quite high so if they aren’t know all over the globe why are students from Africa, Asia, Europe and latin America coming here?
“I never stated that Miami was like NYC or Chicago. We clearly agree that it is not”… since you are repeating yourself and you continue to state that I said that Miami is like Boston, or New York I have reprinted what I said before. Again, please reread my blog. I really believe in the future of this city and you know, time will tell .
Listen, JL you are free to your opinion and you are free to enjoy the “world class duh…” its a free country so enjoy.
As to my comments about us having world class institutions here is the documentation. This is the Beacon Council speaking, not me.
“When it comes to higher education, Miami-Dade is home to various world-class institutions, including Miami Dade College, Florida International University, the University of Miami, Barry University, Florida Memorial University and St. Thomas University. These colleges and universities have each distinguished themselves for the academic accomplishments. For example, Miami Dade College awards more associate degrees to minorities than any other institution in the United States and the University of Miami is the largest private research university in the southeastern United States.”
I hope this settles this statement.
here is the link:
http://www.beaconcouncil.com/web/Content.aspx?Page=education
DLJ, with all due respect, the international students choose the Miami universities because they were easy to get into and the weather is good. Let’s be realistic here. Hopefully their fathers are rich enough to buy them all condos here. One of the earlier posters said one can buy a 2/2 in a new highrise, but I haven’t seen that- even new studios are over $200,000.
a few other interesting facts to anyone who doubts the power of this economy
Miami-Dade, with over 150 financial institutions and just over 61 billion in deposits, has the largest concentration of banks south of New York City.
Sixty percent of all U.S. trade with Central America flows though Miami, 46 of the Caribbean trade and 27 percent of its trade with South America.
There are 61 foreign consulates, 25 foreign trade offices and 32 bi-national chambers of commerce located within Miami-Dade
Miami International Airport has the third highest international passenger traffic in the United States.
MIA is commonly known as the “Hub of the Americas”, serving as the vital gateway between the U.S. and Latin America offering more flights than all other U.S. airports combined.
More than 31.6 million passengers streamed through Miami International Airport in the year 2001 and 100 airlines fly out of the airport to 150 destinations worldwide.
The Port of Miami, known as the “cruise ship capital of the world,” hosted 3.3 million cruise passengers in last year.
Miami-Dade ranks 5th in the world among telecommunications centers (America’s Network Sept. 2000)
Greater Miami is the acknowledged ”Gateway to the Americas“ and it’s strategic location is home to 500 multinational companies that serve North, South and Central America, as well as the Caribbean, Europe, Asia, Australia and Africa.
Source:
http://www.greatermiami.com/live_work_play/factsheet.asp
Bill, I am not arguing that…maybe so, but the fact is that they still choose to come here. Giving our schools clout and international exposure and hence they have graduates everywhere around the globe.
DLJ,
Quit drinking the Kool Aid. If you had said Miami is a middle of the road metropolitan center with middle of the road education and research but with world-class weather and nightlife, I would have left it alone. However, you made some real off the unsubstantiated statements. Once again, quotes are from DLJ:
“Miami-Dade would be the 47th largest economy in the world”
This is the 3rd time I’ve asked you to qualify that statement. You made the statement so I hope you know the purported basis for the stated 47th ranking.
““We have two world renown Universities and the most successful community college in the Nation”
DLJ, this is nuts. The link you gave to back this up is from the Beacon Council. Did you even bother to look up the Beacon Council? -The Beacon Council :: Miami-Dade County’s Official Economic Development Partnership-
The reason Miami Dade’s Schools are world class is because Miami Dade said they are world class. Don’t you see a problem with using this logic?
After you live here a while, you start talking slower, thinking slower and then begin confusing mediocrity with excellence. Didn’t you know, there’s a 90-day rule. If you stay more than 90 days straight in Miami, your brain starts to atrophy. You need to put down the Ocean Drive magazine and turn off Fashion TV immediately; catch a JetBlue flight to NY asap, and begin therapy. Therapy sometimes starts in the cab at JFK where you might actually run into a cabbie listening to NPR on his radio. JetBlue to NY periodically should be classified as preventive medicine for Floriduhinians.
“We have cutting edge Medical Research going on in our back yard(My field)”
You forgot to mention Bascom Palmer. That is the shining light of the UM Medical Complex and is World Class in what it does. Having said that, it still doesn’t elevate the totality of the medical research from being mid pack in the country .. ie The totality of medical research here is average for a large metropolitan area. It’s nothing to be embarrassed about, but it’s nothing to tout.
“Drug companies are far wealthier than the NIH and they fund a hell of a lot that no one else funds. So the 45th ranking means relatively little“
This statement is totally insane. You can’t be in medical research. A medical institution’s NIH ranking means little? It means everything to a world renowned medical institution. If you don’t’ understand that, then it’s pointless arguing with you. The NIH funds $28-$30 Billion of medical research annually. Drug companies don’t fund far less research outside of their own labs so what the wealth of drug companies has to do with Miami, I don’t particularly get your point. Miami is middle of the road in terms of NIH grants, and I would suspect it is middle of the road in terms of Drug Industry grants/clinical trials. It’s OK, not great.
DLJ, you can’t just throw out wild statements like that sprinkled in with facts. You try to answer questions by throwing out true facts that have nothing to do with the questions asked. Most people in Miami don’t know better, but I’m not from Miami. I just enjoy the weather and the nightlife down here.
2nd to last paragraph should have said …Drug companies fund far less research outside of their own labs…
c) At $203 billion, the revenue managed by South Florida multinationals is nearly the size of the GDPs of Argentina ($248 billion) and Venezuela ($227 billion) and larger than that of Colombia ($172 billion) and Chile ($161 billion).
International Monetary Fund: GDP (nominal) 2007, ranked 43 out of 179 countries –Chile;
that would place south florida and not just miami dade at position 42.
I am not sprinkling facts; they are speaking for themselves.
NIH is very important yes, but its not the whole story… I repeat as you have a habit of not reading my answers…I never said that we were anywhere near the top in funding; i just said that we are an important research site wich is world renown in many fields just like others are renown in other fields.
The Beacom Council has a great reputation, please look it up… I don’t care where you are from, facts are facts. Now, if you tell me that you don’t trust ANY of these organizations then you are right. Our arguments would serve no purpose. I just don’t understand your vitriol vis-a-vis this state. I have never seen anyone flat out say floridians are stupid and they must travel north for a quality education and to get enlightened. Do you realize how horribly bigoted that sounds? You sound like a Yank fighting the civil war.
The fact that you said that it is ok is making progress, JL I again am not saying that we are #1 in research, just that we are important… can you understand that? You are right in asking for proof and I think I have done my research. The beacom council is a trusted institution down here… it would be totally discredited if it lied and made up numbers. Who else would do an in depth research of this city if not our local institution and government? And if indeed you are right show me different and prove me wrong.
we do have cutting edge research in this city; just not in every field, but there are many that we do have. I don’t know what else to say. Unlike you I hardly watch TV so sorry. Your stereotypes about Floridians aren’t all that accurate. I think we have a problem with semantics as far as schools are concerned…i already told you that it isn’t Ivy-League that i was referring to, just quality education that is available to a huge proportion of international students and hence the word world renown. I hope you can live with that.
I wont discuss the ins and outs of my business with you, but suffice it to say that there are phase 1 to phase 4 trials going on all over this city with huge money from drug companies. Human research more often than not, goes on in medical offices all over the country. Drug companies don’t recruit their own patients. They rely on us to do it. I have no reason to lie to you or attempt to deceive you.
sources for the first paragraph:
http://www.worldcityweb.com/home/MIA/statistics/view/214/
Arrogance and conceit are bad for the soul.
jl,
also in 2005 Miami was ranked the 18th wealthiest city in the world with a GDP of 231 billion dollars. You can extrapolate that number and see exactly where it fits as an independent unit. which again would rank it in the 40’s as an independent unit.
source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_GDP
source:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/miami/302687-miami-ranked-world-s-29th-richest-3.html
I hope this answers your question…
peace.
wow…i’d like to take some credit for starting the dlj/jl pissing match but i’ll give la la credit where credit is due. that said, and i’ve iterated it before, no fortune 500 will be here because you simply cannot attract top talent at all levels (including backoffice as someone already pointed out). there’s simply better paying jobs in better cities, with a cheaper cost of living than miami to do similar work. now if you’re an entrepreneur (as was the case with me), then this is a place to lay your stake and get ahead of the curve.
la la, you said you were only talking about quality of life and not what drawing power miami will have to the fortune 500, but you have to realize quality of life is driven in large part by the strength of private industry in a city. look at all the great cities and their civic institutions – their greatest contributors are all private industries or endowments funded by them.
Citibank, Northern Trust, Sun Trust are laying off very quickly, how will this effect Brickell area?This is a financial meltdown now, never seen to this extent before in Miami. Thoughts? Citbank announced they will be laying of over 20,000 before end of the year.
hello
im new on this forum….
Beautiful. Did it sell?