South Beach & Miami Beach Closed Condo Sales – November 2009

Well, its reassuring to know that some dummy was willing to pay over $400/sf for a condo in that sh*thole Floridian. And someone else snagged one 3 floors higher for $227/sq ft on the same day.

Lucas, I am pretty sure that this data is not 100% correct as I believe you are only using MLS sales and not developer sales.

For example, you are not including the sales for MEI which has closed 60 units in 2009 at an average price of $574/sf.

Hugo,

That’s correct. It only includes sales in the MLS. Unfortunately, most developers do not report their sales in the MLS.

Understood, but maybe you should clear that up in your post as some people might get confused

Hi Drew, The 2603 at $400/sf is direct bayview/waterview. The 2906 at $227/sf is the city view. It just goes to show that people are willing to pay a premium for unobstructed water views. No matter what anybody is going to say like 1) You cant eat a view 2) You are eventually going to get tired of a view and 3) After a few months/years, you will stop looking at the view etc. I completely disagree with any of such arguments. The view from a flat has as much value as the location and the space. At least haf… Read more »

I totally agree with (1), (2) and (3) above. Post 5

If you live 24×7 in the place, anything gets boring including direct walk to the beach oceanfront.

If you use the place sparingly, then it’s a different ballgame.

I so agree with AJ its all about the view. I would never buy street view or a condo where you look at neighbors windows like many new ones in Brickell area. The builder closed units don’t reflect 2009 prices if the were sold pre-construction.

I’ve been living at 900 B for going on 9 months now, on a floor above 45th – and I don’t think the view is ever getting old. However, we had a water pipe burst and a unit on the 20th floor had some severe damages (hard-wood floors). The repair scaffolding spans all the way to the 17th floor common areas and looks extensive. I have tried to find out what the damages are, specifically – and if there will be an assessment to the HOA fees. Anyone have the scoop?

Lucas,

Thanks again for compiling some great info. I can only hope that the downtown numbers are pending? Best wishes – shwin

On another note – anyone have updates on the plans for the world center?

AJ — I’m still waiting for that link where I said Continuum would be available for $175/sf, as you claimed in the other thread. Thanks.

From Miami Today Sept 10 2009: Nitin Motwani leads drive for gigantic Miami Worldcenter to transform downtown, including convention center hotel Growing up in the hotel business, Nitin Motwani didn’t want to follow his dad’s footsteps and chose investment banking. But soon, he says, he found his passion for real estate after seeing how his parents’ vision helped transformed Fort Lauderdale Beach. He returned to Florida and met investors with a big idea for a complex comprised of hotels, retail and entertainment venues in downtown Miami that is to become Miami Worldcenter. The group seeks to revitalize long-neglected Park West… Read more »

Joe, I cannot search google like you are able to with all the search parameters and then sifting through tons of search results. I am not here to prove anything. I had distinct memory of your such statement in the back of my mind and when I first read it, I said “he is not serious, is he?” But if you say you never said some such thing, I will take your word for it. After all this is just a blog. Half entertainment and half information. Digital signatures of authenticity not required.

AJ — See, that’s your problem. You come here and pop off and call people idiots, and then you have no facts whatsoever to back up your statements. You should be more careful with what you post here. For one thing, I never said Continuum would sell for $175/sf. For another, it’s not helpful to tell people that Continuum is selling for “$1,200 to $1,700/sf” when it’s really selling for $550 to $1,000. If you want to be bullish on the Miami condo market, then that’s your right. But don’t just make up “facts” out of thin air and post… Read more »

Units in Miami can have up to a 40% price difference among similar units in the same building. Pricing is all over the place. Best to stay away from the higher priced units unless you are talking about a penthouse unit. Most buildings have no privacy between balconies. Miami has a large amount of loud people who tend to flock units with large balconies and great views. They invite their friends from the ghetto to hang out and disturb everybody in the entire building. Good luck if your balcony doesn’t have a divider wall between units.

The $342 per sq ft average sales price is a complete and utter fallacy for Miami as far as I can tell is the only county in the country that refuses to recognize short sales and foreclosures. And as such if a Condo sold at $400 per sq ft at the height of the boom in 2006 and then sold at $125 per sq ft in foreclosure in 2009 the Miami Property Appraiser will list the sale at the 2006 price regardless of $400. By my estimation the average Condo sales price in Miami in now down to $67.00 per… Read more »

Gansevoort hotel going to auction….

in miami view is very important since theres no jobs, one needs to look at something nice while home vacuming and dusting

AJ In response to your post #5, I assume that you mean Unit 2906 “city view” faces west (“city” meaning downtown Miami). If so, that is a much better view than Unit 2603 “direct bayview/water view” that presumably faces east. Anyone who’s been in a similar unit in that area knows that a west view is much better than an east view, especially at night. At that height in that bldg (in either unit), you have a waterview no matter what direction you face. Regardless of the quality of the view, keep in mid The Floridian was a former apartment… Read more »

Drew, One thing I agree with you is that Floridian is a toilet. But then I have to stop. Every building on West Avenue with the lines of flats facing the bay have insane premiums over the other side views. Flamingo, Floridian, Mirador, Waverly, South Bay Club etc. Have you actually seen the bay view with the astonishing Miami Downtown skyline in the background? I have never seen anything as spectacular anywhere in the World and I have been to many many fascinating places. This particular view is better than Hong Kong Harbor, Sydney Harbor, Vancouver, San Fransisco Bay, Hoboken… Read more »

Joe,
looking for validation from anonymous bloggers? come on dude, get a life.

“The Gansevoort could be the leading edge of what analysts predict will be a wave of banks seizing hotels throughout South Florida next year.”

These South Beach properties are crumbling by the minute. The Roney (Gansevoort) was always a troubled property. Nice to see the gigantic mortgage they have.

Here are some headlines from South Florida Business Journal…………

Prices slashed on 25 percent of Miami homes in Q3
South Florida home value losses top $45B in 2009
TransUnion: Florida mortgage delinquency to rise in 2010
S. Fla. foreclosure filings up in Nov.

Looks like we should see a recovery in 2030.

AJ, here’s a short vid I took of the view from my balcony….I think it’s pretty good…

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=1p79du&s=4

…but with comments like this you sound like a crazy person:

“Have you actually seen the bay view with the astonishing Miami Downtown skyline in the background? I have never seen anything as spectacular anywhere in the World and I have been to many many fascinating places. This particular view is better than Hong Kong Harbor, Sydney Harbor, Vancouver, San Fransisco Bay, Hoboken (Jersey side of Manhattan) or any other city next to a water body.”

AJ – a little over the top regarding the view. re the Gansevoort, I was never sure how all of these new high end hotels were supposed to survive even in a good economy. The cost of the original buildings/land + cost of construction were astronomical for some of these projects, and the rack rate prices are out of reach for all but a relatively small niche demographic. None of them have tie-ins to the big chains, so they get zero feed from the huge built-in customer bases of Hilton Hyatt etc. The new W’s in South Beach and Fort… Read more »

AJ said: “Joe, looking for validation from anonymous bloggers? come on dude, get a life.”

No, I’m not looking for validation. I’m just looking for some facts, and maybe some basic honesty. You seem to be one of those guys who thinks anonymity is a license to say whatever you feel like saying, the truth be damned. Please do all of us a favor and stop wasting our time with B.S., and maybe mix in a few facts once in a while.

DJ and Skeptic, Not crazy at all. I totally stand by my statement. It is an unbelievable view. Not so much in 2003. But as of 2008 with one of the most dramatic skyline in America second only to Manhattan and when the sun goes down and that Miami Downtown skyline is lit up in its most dazzling glory, with biscayne bay like a circular lake surrounded by all this man made marvels and reflecting the lights of the downtown and the bridges and the lights from all the Islands and water craft…. If any of you are not familiar… Read more »

OK Joe. If “facts” for you are someone going to tell you what you want to hear, then sorry. You are wrestling over a year to buy a flat in SOFI for 11 pennies on the dollar. It is not going to happen. So if you really want a flat so bad in SOFI (my guess is you and a few thousand others), then come up with the dough. A product is worth as much as people are willing to pay for it. And I believe a lot of people are willing to pay top dollars for a SOFI flat.… Read more »

DJ – Thnx for the vid view – sweet. Btw – How is your property tax appeal coming along? I heard there is quite a backlog.

AJ – I guess you have never sat on a balcony here in Miami in August or September. It’s brutal. And the worlds best view – puhleez lol – better than Sydney, San Fran andHong Kong ? Give me a break. The Miami Beach West Av. view is about two miles to downtown. You need a telescope. Hoboken hehe.

AJ — Do you have some sort of mental disability and/or character flaw that compels you to come here and just flat-out lie? First of all, I have NOT been “wrestling over a year to buy a flat in SOFI.” I haven’t lived or worked in Miami AT ALL in 2009, so the idea I’ve been obsessed with finding a “flat” is utter nonsense. I’m simply following the market for when I return to Miami in 2010. Second, if “thousands” of people are lining up to buy condos in SoFi at today’s prices, then please explain why OVER FIFTY PERCENT… Read more »

Joe Joe Joe You have to understand that there is a parallel universe in Miami. Every condo or house has multiple bids. Buyers from Latin America, Europe and even China are running around the streets with suitcases full of cash. I hear that the North Koreans and Mongolians are arriving soon. Most of the sales posted are fictitious and are reported. When the lender buys back the property at auction it is reported as sale. Yes technically it is. But it has no meaning. But interestingly, REO properties sold for 30 cents on a dollar are not included. List price… Read more »

From the last post above: “Interestingly, REO properties sold for 30 cents on a dollar are not included.”

Can someone please explain to me how this is even legal? How can Miami-Dade continue to list old sales prices as the *current* sale price of record for foreclosures, REOs, etc.? I don’t understand this. Why aren’t the media, the Miami-area state reps, local taxpayers, et al., raising holy hell over this?

Once again, something is true simply because AJ says it’s true. Yawn.

And BTW it is not over yet. By 2015, I will bet that most of the mothballed projects in Miami downtown (at least 25 skyscrapers of them) such as 1 Bayfront plaza, Empire World Towers, Paramount park, Capital on Brickell, City Square etc will either start breaking gound or be seriously under construction and the Biscayne wall gap will get filled out as do the northern corridor between Marquis and Blue. In 10 years, there will be a gap free, continuous Miami Skyline from Rickenbacker to Julia Tuttle. This water front is too valuable to be left alone undeveloped.

c’mon Joe, at least I have an opinion. Right or wrong, I do have one on many issues that matter to Miami. I kick start the discussion and give something to talk about when things get mundane and dry. The only opinion (or interest) you have is how to buy a cheap flat in SOBE. Nothing wrong with that but just stating. If left to your ilk, this blog would be a yawn too.

Joe, You are giving a headache to everyone. Just chillax. Kramer, Same answer to you as I gave to DJ. I standby my statement. There is simply no parallel to the Miami downtown view after sunset from West Avenue buildings. Even though many high buildings such as Il Villagio, Continuum North etc on the East end of SOBE has downtown views, it is not the same. I really urge any of you to befriend someone in a West ave building, sufficiently high up like 10th floor or something and go down there, sit in the balcony with a glass of… Read more »

AJ said: “This water front is too valuable to be left alone undeveloped.” Long term, that might be true, but to suggest that Miami will absorb 10,000 condo units between now and 2015 *and* that demand will spike to the point that 25 *new* projects will be built seems just a tad optimistic. Look, I like Miami as much as anyone, but right now it’s a city in decline from the standpoint of glitz and jobs and tourism. Sure, all of these new condo buildings LOOK nice, but when 50 to 70% of them are empty, occupied by renters, or… Read more »

Joe, I agree with most of what you say. And definitely agree with “Unless 30,000 rich people suddenly decide they need a second home in Miami — and there’s no evidence of that, given the stagnant sales in SoFi”. But it is all the more reason, downtown holds promise. It is the only place where you can construct affordable and cheap flats for between $200 to $400/sf. All the empty plots of land will change hands after they go on foreclosure. Another classic example, the City Sq project on Miami Herald land will come up but will be done by… Read more »

AJ said: “But it is all the more reason, downtown holds promise. It is the only place where you can construct affordable and cheap flats for between $200 to $400/sf.” The problem is, I don’t see $200/sf as being all that affordable, and $400 certainly isn’t. At $200/sf, a 1,500/sf condo is $300,000, while the same condo would be $600,000 at $400/sf. (And then there are the condo fees, which, in some buildings, are like a second mortgage payment on a decent-sized single-family home.) It all comes back to jobs. Right now in Miami, there’s nowhere near enough good jobs… Read more »

Joe says “At $200/sf, a 1,500/sf condo is $300,000, while the same condo would be $600,000 at $400/sf.” Well look at this California Couple (used to XXL spaces in Cali) who paid $857/sf for a 175 sf apartment in Manhattan just 3 months ago in the peak of the recession. They seem to be quite happy in that closet sized room. People will adjust. People will learn. Manhattanites feel that a 550 sf apartment in New York split into 2 bedrooms is heavenly. A family of 4 squeezing into a 1 bedroom flat in Shanghai considers themselves the luckiest folks… Read more »

And please see all the photos of the apartment here. I hope it will open some peoples eyes whose misguided priorities consider a bathroom with a combination tub and shower as belonging to a poor house. When we can all start to learn to live on less, it will be good for you and everyone else around you too.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/city_tiniest_studio_AF3nqD1kArYgpdyTyjNnXP

And while you are at it, read all the comments too. Very interesting and eye opening:

http://www.nypost.com/f/listcomment/news/local/manhattan/city_tiniest_studio_AF3nqD1kArYgpdyTyjNnXP

AJ & Joe-
Do you guys ever sleep or just prefer to bicker over condo values on the Internet from 11pm through 5am? Sheesh.

I assume your wives/girlfriends/boyfriends are thrilled with the all-nighter blog postings.

I don’t understand why AJ is getting so much flack over his comments re the view. The view from west facing units on West Ave is utterly amazing & the sunsets are especially addictive. I am from NY & one can always argue which one prefers but I think that the Biscayne Bay panorama is definitly in a wortld class league.

AJ, While I like your optimism I think your example aren’t really relevant. Here in DC our prices are somewhat similar to NY. I would love to be able to get a 1500 sq ft condo for $200 sq ft. But the big difference between places like DC and NY and a place like Miami is that we have a lot of high paying jobs. DC and Manhattan is only so big. People spend hours commuting just to work there each day. Take a look at this link and click on the month rental analysis for November 2009. The current… Read more »

All those mothballed and permitted building sites around the CBD are exactly what will suppress any appreciation value in the current buildings. As soon as the market recovers, there are dozens of permitted shovel ready buildings waiting to pop up.

Also, construction costs (both hard and soft costs) are far below what they were in 2005, so the next wave of buildings should not be as costly.

Ever been to a West Avenue condo during a heavy rainstorm? Its completely flooded. Hundreds of cars in those buildings were flooded this past June. It happens all the time because West Avenue is the lowest point in South Beach, and all the water drains that direction. If you buy on the beach, the closer to Ocean Drive or Collins is the best, highest location.

Have you guys ever lived in Manhattan? I guess not. People who live in Manhattan have very high paying jobs and big bonuses which requires them to burn midnight oil. Ever wondered how the billion dollar investment banking deals are done? If you have one of those jobs – you need to live nearby to get s0me sleep. (It is the bed that counts not the kitchen). Miami household incomes do not go over $100K unless you work for the government. There are more people living in tiny 1960’s built studio apartments in South Beach than in $1000 sqft apartments… Read more »

“Miami household incomes do not go over $100K unless you work for the government.” – – Poorand unemloyed

Source? Gross exaggeration? SWAG? (Silly Wild-#ss Guess)

Last time I looked, (and it has been a while) few government jobs in Miami could generate a $100k household income – – not a huge number of GS15’s in Miami, last time I looked.

scriv

Kramer (#27), I have no idea how the tax appeal is coming along to be honest. My building hired a law firm to file appeals for all the unit owners (unless you chose to opt-out)….I foget the name of the firm at the moment. They’re doing it on a contingency basis and will take 30% of whatever amount they have the taxes reduced by. I know the county is way backlogged with appeaks so I’m not holding my breath on getting a check, but whatever I end up saving will be better than nothing. I just paid the 2009 taxes… Read more »

Hi DJ,
1800 Club is doing the same thing. They got a firm who got the 2008 taxes reduced and we gave them 30% of the savings as fee. We have retained them again this year. Nice video!